Belvidere Hospital, Parkhead

[DickyHart]

I played a bit of footy on it, a nice wee tunnel was underneath and you ran out onto the pitch from it feeling like superstar. then get humped 7-nil hehehe

[Dugald]

Scotland has produced some of the best track cyclists in the world yet they have to go to England to train, why shouldn't we have facilities here?

I agree with you Alan, regarding Scotland producing some great track cyclists, but to a non-cyclist,I'm sure they won't give a second thought to whether Scotland produces great cyclists or not. To build a velodrome will be very expensive, and it will never attract enough spectators to cover operating expenses let alone the cost of building it. (Don't Scottish cyclists currently have the use of the bicycle track in Edinburgh?) The city of Montreal inherited a magnificent velodrome from the 1976 Olympics, but it has done little to improve Canada's standing in world track racing... worth noting too, that montreal is about three times the size of Glsgow, and there are lots of active cyclists there, yet they could never fill the velodrome with spectators. Much and all as I would like to see a good track in Glasgow, I realise it just wouldn't be worth the cost. Spend the money on some good cycle paths instead.

[crusty_bint]

Dugald, how long have you been in Canada?

The point you and Josef are missing is that the Executive is providing the majority of funding for the velodrome, and its not just a velodrome, its a complex of 2000 seat velodrome, 5000 seat National Indoor Sports Arena and the new HQ of Sport Scotland, Scotlands national sports agency (being relocated from Edinburgh). This combined and integrated facility, coupled with its proximity to a huge football stadium is well placed to act as a regeneration catalyst for the area and your assumption that it will be used once is one borne of naivety.

The velodrome, along with the other facilities I have mentioned will be built regardless of whether or not Glasgow gets the 2014 Commonwealth Games. The reason we are bidding for the games is because these facilities are being built, not the other way round.

[AlanM]

In addition to Crusty's point, very little of the infrastructure required to host the Commonwealth games is still be constructed, with the majority requiring some upgrading or adaptation for use.
For instance in a city with four 10,000+ seater stadia we are not building a new athletics arena for the games but adapting Hampden to host athletics and therefore not leaving a large building that would get little use after the games, should our bid be successful.

[Josef]

Fair enough. I freely confess to seldom even finishing the headline of any story that mentions athletics, let alone the story itself, so mentioning the Commonwealth Games was posting from ignorance. Sorry.

I was really just asking why Helenvale Park was allowed to fall into dereliction.

[Edit] Actually, I've just found out why.

The track was originally 400m/440y cinder. It was replaced with an astro turf pitch with a 200m track around the more southerly length of the pitch and the eastern end. The rest of the perimeter of the pitch was just squared off although there is a narrow section of synthetic surface around it. The park fell into disuse after someone broke their leg at a joint on the pitch and the council would not re-lay the pitch. Since then the stand has been set alight, the ground closed and the astroturf lifted. It is believed the running track went at the same time as the pitch. The place is now locked up so there is no public access.

[onyirtodd]

Dugald, how long have you been in Canada?

The point you and Josef are missing is that the Executive is providing the majority of funding for the velodrome, .......................... .

Will the Executive be using their own money or, as usual, ours

[crusty_bint]

It comes from the Block Grant therefore comes out of the national (UK) purse, not from Glasgow Council Tax payers if that's what you're alluding to.

[Dugald]

" Dugald, how long have you been in Canada? "

Crusty-bint, I can't think of any useful contribution to this discussion that would be provided by an answer to your question, but the reason for it is quite clear, and you have every right of course, to highlight my lack of bone fides : it's been a long time since I paid taxes in Scotland. Although residing in Canada, I found the topic interesting because at one time I was involved in the cycling sport in the West of Scotland and, having had an interest in international sporting events for a long time, I thought my opinion regarding a velodrome and the 2014 Commonwealth Games, might be of interest to some people.

"The point you and Josef are missing is that the Executive is providing the majority of funding for the velodrome, and its not just a velodrome, its a complex of 2000 seat velodrome, 5000 seat National Indoor Sports Arena and the new HQ of Sport Scotland,..."

Yes, I missed this point. Well, I didn't really miss it, I just wasn't aware of it. I don't know what it means anyway. I feel however, regardless of who is said to be providing the funding, that ultimately it will come out of someone's pocket. By coincidence, the city where I live has started construction of an indoor sports arena and the cost has already soared far above the original cost.

"...your assumption that it will be used once is one borne of naivety. "

Oh, I don't think so Crusty-Bint, I think rather, my assumption stems from experience. I've mentioned the 1976 Olympics, and I know of two other velodrome-style tracks in Ontario which quickly fell into disrepair and disuse, and I'd wager they never earned a cent! Over and above this, I recall the very best track cyclists in the world, including the World Sprint Champion, racing at Ibrox Stadium. I was among the few thousand spectators. Any time I raced at Westhorn, I'll bet all the spectators were either cyclists themselves or relatives of competitors. Can you imagine what it would cost Glasgow today to bring a World Champion to their velodrome... I can.

"The reason we are bidding for the games is because these facilities are being built, not the other way round The velodrome, along with the other facilities I have mentioned will be built".

Yes, this is a very important point. I already knew about it and I'm very pleased about it. I think it's great for Scottish cyclists, and I wish them many years of successful competitions. The Sports Centre is also great for Scottish athletes in general. I hope this makes my point of view clear that I am not averse to money being spent for the benefit of Scottish athletes... I'm all for it, but let's not hoodwink the public in order to obtain public money for a small segment of Scottish society.

Anyway Crusty-bint, thank you for your detailed explanation... I'm wiser for having read it. Cheers, Dugald.

[HollowHorn]

Anyway folks, thank you for your detailed explanation... I'm wiser for having read it. Cheers, HH
Now, back to Belvidere.................

[crusty_bint]

No it wasn't anything to do with taxes, I was curious (and admittedly a tad facetious) as Canada seems to have had a bad experience with hosting the games that has left a bitterness (and, granted, a debt you're still repaying) in your national psyche. However, I don't think Canada's experience is necessarily the inevitable result of hosting the games, Edinburgh has managed it successfully several times and Manchester has done particularly well from hosting a few years back.

In respect to funding, in basic terms the Scottish Executive receives a Block Grant from National (UK) Government which it then decides how it will be spent, allocating budgets to the various National Agencies to spend. So the budget for the velodrome, National Indoor Sports Arena and Sport Scotland HQ has already been allocated and isn't part of the cost of hosting the Games. The additional funding for the Commonwealth Games itself (for the various upgrade schemes and infrastructure works) will come from a different, seperate budget, allocated specifically to the Games. On top of this you have to take into account the wider context of the £1.6billion Clyde Gateway Masterplan in which the legacy of the Games plays a small, but potentially pivotal role.

I appreciate the doubts you have and realise that you're basing your opinion on experience, albeit Canada's experience. Project budgets do overrun, but say what you will about Glasgow City Council, they are particularly shrewd when it comes to large-scale and high-profile projects like this. My experience is that unless a project is financially viable, with a sound business plan and realistic budget and schedule then GCC are very reluctant to invest. And of course someone has to pay for it, you dont get nought for nought in this world, but as I've suggested, the extra investment to hold the games in nominal in comparison to the benefits to the east end and Glasgow, Scotland even as a whole.

And whilst I disagree with you, I am interested to hear your view. What I don't understand however, is that you talk of Glasgow's sporting, specifically cycling heritage in such fond and proud terms yet you have, for want of a better phrase, a pure downer on this. No-ones trying to deceive anyone, everything Iv mentioned is freely available on the web

Back the Bid!

...and we can all have a good mince and flounce about the hockey field...

[crusty_bint]

oh aye... erm Belvidere... one of my great grannies died there.

[Dugald]

And whilst I disagree with you, I am interested to hear your view. What I don't understand however, is that you talk of Glasgow's sporting, specifically cycling heritage in such fond and proud terms yet you have, for want of a better phrase, a pure downer on this.

Thanks again C.B., for your detailed explanation of the finances; I think I get it now. With regard to my having "a pure downer" about Scotland's "specifically cycling heritage", let me say I don't. Scotland's, and specifically Glasgow's, cycling heritage is rich and well worth remembering. Now, back to the Belvidere. Cheers, Dugald.

[Ally Doll]

Some information on the conversion of the building...

08/01343/DC
Site Of Former Belvidere Hospital, 1432 London Road, Glasgow, G31 4LE

Conversion and alteration of hospital building to form 6 flats with associated landscaping and parking