Hitler's deputy crashed in Scotland

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Postby Field Marshall Shug » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:48 pm

Off course, it was a fake Hess. That's why Churchill played-down the whole thing and refused to allow him to be photographed. The real Hess arrived at the air-field for one of his many flying escapades (he was an award-winning pilot) and his flying suit was missing, so he borrowed another. The Hess who then falls out of the plane in Renfrewshire is wearing the suit with the name Hess on it. He is gaunt, but the real Hess is well-built. He makes a big show of being a vegitarian but that lasts about five minutes. By the time he is on trial he is scoffing meat.

He refuses to see his wife until the 60s, by which time he has digested countless letters from her and become aware of many memories the real Hess had. Then a doctor examines him and notices his World War One bullet wound is missing and then a book gets writen about it in the 70s called 'The Murder of Rudolph Hess' and then that's it.
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Postby shammon » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:11 pm

My Girlfriend still sees the soldiger who caught him as his plane crashed, No im not talking sh*t he stays in residentual care in Eastkilbride, where she works.

He has loads of pictures and did state the machine gun on the plane was still wrapped up in grease proof paper and was never fired. he was the first one there as it all happened.

Nice to see a thread about this :D


UPDATE: Just had a chat with her and he has saddly died. which is a pity. Il try to find out if his pics were copied and let you know, with out breaching any confidentuality etc.
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More Hess!

Postby Dugald » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:47 pm

A couple of days ago Sharon provided me with the thread, "Hitler's deputy crashed in Scotland". I have just finished reading them all, and must say it's a great wealth of information! I have been interested in this topic for a long time so perhaps I'll be forgiven for bringing it up again.

I was particularly interested in the following comment made by Knowledge, on Aug 6th, regarding the memorial stone which had been erected at the location where Hess' plane crashed.
I quite agree that there should be nothing wrong with some sort of marker; he was an important man in history and should be remembered accordingly, no matter that he was from the other side.


This thought seems very reasonable to me. I agree too, with those who expressed the feeling that Hess' action in flying to Scotland was both heroic and brave: he was not a young man; he left his family at the mercy of the Nazis; he flew a fighter aircraft through both British and German AA defences; and he jumped out of a flying aircraft...actions which I feel require heroism and bravery.

Doc Lightning, on Aug 6th, says:

If he'd been that brave he'd have shot Hitler in the head.


No doubt this too, would have been both heroic and brave, but as an admirer, and fanatical supporter, of Hitler, it was hardly likely to have been one of the options to which Hess would have given any thought. Hess was, I feel, naïve, and I think this was his main weakness, perhaps even his only one.

Moderator Pgcc93's reminiscences of the conversation with his grandmother reminds me of my own experience when I set off from Govan with my pal on my bicycle to ride to Eaglesham. The influx into the area of army trucks full of soldiers and policemen was exactly what I too, noticed...and it all added to the excitement of the venture. We cycled through Barrhead in our search for Eaglesham and the roads were loaded with troops and police. We only got as far as East Kilbride, but this was because we didn't know the way and there were no signposts, but no one stopped or questioned us.
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Postby Apollo » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:50 am

I was doing some research recently that led to a place called Inverlair Lodge, and one of the pieces of info passed to me was an unconfirmed story (that the sender didn't believe, but mentioned that he'd read it somewhere, just to give a complete answer) that Hess had been held there.

I agreed, and dismissed it as rather far fetched, as I had a reasonably believable timeline with locations that covered the period from his arrival on the moor to his despatch to the Tower of London. Given the time and distance (you'll find Inverlair near Tulloch, a little way north east of Fort William), complicated by the injury Hess had received when he bailed, the idea seems ridiculous and pointless.

I decided to have a hunt around and see if there were any comments or reports elsewhere, and was slightly taken aback to find that our 'own' visitscotland.com was almost alone in quoting this 'fact' on its Spean Bridge & the Great Glen page, specifically:

"Inverlair, famous in the twentieth century as one of the places in Northern Scotland where Rudolf Hess, Deputy Leader of Nazi Germany, was held prisoner after his flight to Scotland in May 1941."

Two more online links cropped up, one which is just some recuperating tourist doing a cut & paste job which can therefore be dismissed, and another, where someone researching their family history refers to their family's farm with "It was used by the Army during World War II, and Hess was imprisoned there". Although there's no proof/evidence other than the tale, it is interesting in so far as the entry is marked August 8, 1969, so pre-dates any web contamination if it is genuine.

I know there's a few folk with libraries covering this event, with access to info I'm unaware of, so wondered if anyone has a reliable source, or if you think it's a crackpot idea that the Tourist Board is just promoting to get a few more tourist 'Bums on Seats'?
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Postby ibtg » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:49 am

I used to work for Scottisjh Legal Life in Bothwell Street. The building has a basement ( known as 'the dunny', short for dungeon - not the Australian meaning!) and sub-basement ('the double-dunny') and I was reliably (?) informed that Hess had been held in the double-dunny for a short period of time before being sent down south.

I wonder if he really did stop at all the places rumoured to have held him, or if it was just put about at the time 'to fool the enemy'.
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Postby brickwall » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:05 am

I can beat that muckers. When I left school I got a job as a trainee forester out at Arnprior and was introduced to the chappie who was Hess's
bodyguard whilst he was hospitalised at Buchanan Castle. Not much to tell really and no.......there are no photos that I know off. Plus my boss and his boss were shooting friends of Maj Gen Roy Urquhart.

Not the real Urquhart obviously:

Image
eh?
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Postby Dugald » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:02 pm

Interesting stuff regarding " Inverlair ", well, kind of. I tend to go along with Apollo's " think it's a crackpot idea" . I never heard of anything about this before, but that in itself doesn't mean a thing one way or the other.

There might be something in Ibtq's mention of Bothwell though. Why? I don't know other than a vague recollection of hearing Hess had been "lodged" somehere "up the town" in Glasgow, and Bothwell St. was "up the town". Yes, I know, so was Maryhill Barracks.

"Buchanan Castle", mentioned by Brickwall, did of course feature in the Hess saga. Although I knew Hess had gone to a hospital out there, I hadn't known it as "Buchanan Castle". It was near the village of Killearn and known simply as 'Killearn Hospital'. After the war it was used as an adjunct to one of Glasgow's big hospitals, and I cycled out through Milngavie to get there quite a number of times, and never without the thought that Hess had been out there.
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Postby Apollo » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:44 pm

Don't know about the dunny in Bothwell St, but the idea of Inverlair being leaked as a diversionary tactic does make more sense, and would have been plausible at the time.

Inverlair Lodge was a special camp operated by the Special Operations Executive (SOE), and nicknamed "The Cooler". Outwardly, part of the Inter Service Research Bureau (ISRB), which developed SOE's weapons and tools, this designation was actually a cover for its real use as an internment or detention camp for agents that could not be let loose in in public. They were not prisoners as such, but individuals who had failed or dropped out of training for a secret operation, and could not be allowed to return to public life while they information they had in their heads was still classified as secret.

They were only prisoners in the sense that they could not leave the camp, and were accommodated in what was describe as a luxurious lifestyle while they were detained. Some were said to be permanent residents, unable to return to public life, for fear of being killed or endangering their families if recognised.

Given that the enemy would have been assumed to have known about The Cooler and its purpose (whether or not thay actually did), deliberatley leaking information to the effect that Hess would be held there, while he was actually heading in the opposite direction, makes perfect sense.

Thanks for the hint :D
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Postby Toby Dammit » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:38 pm

Apollo wrote:its real use as an internment or detention camp for agents that could not be let loose in in public. They were not prisoners as such, but individuals who had failed or dropped out of training for a secret operation, and could not be allowed to return to public life while they information they had in their heads was still classified as secret.


Sounds a helluva lot like a certain TV series that starred Patrick McGoohan in the 1960's (and I don't mean DANGER MAN).
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Postby Apollo » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:58 pm

Toby Dammit wrote:Sounds a helluva lot like a certain TV series that starred Patrick McGoohan in the 1960's (and I don't mean DANGER MAN).

Would it surprise you to learn that PMG's buddy, George Markstein, was a WWII journalist, with British Intelligence connections, who 'discovered' Inverlair, and wrote a novel called The Cooler, set in Inverloch?

The Cooler was George's first novel, and was published in 1974 Set in the days leading up to D-Day, in the undercover world of SOE, at a time when the mounting pressure could make even a good agent a threat to the whole invasion.

The tag line on the cover was : The secret that can only be told as fiction.

Inside, a short dedication reads : This story is fiction. But there was a Cooler. Those who know about it don't have to be told any more. Those who don't can't be told any more.
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Postby Toby Dammit » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:13 pm

Apollo wrote:Would it surprise you to learn that PMG's buddy, George Markstein, was a WWII journalist, with British Intelligence connections


Jings! Very interesting. As you probably already know, Markstein played the implacable chap behind the desk McGoohan "resigns" to at the start of each episode. He and McGoohan fell out big time over the direction the show began to take, and over claims and counter claims of who's idea THE PRISONER was in the first place.
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Postby Graham » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:29 pm

When Hess crashed at Floors Farm (which is actually in Waterfoot, not Eaglesham) the story goes that he was "captured" by a ploughman called David McLean with the aid of his trusty pitchfork and taken to Mr McLean's house to await the authorities.

It turned out later however that the pitchfork incident never took place and was in fact dreamt up by the local media to add some spice to the story. Prior to the photos of Mr McLean being taken a new pitchfork was purchased by a member of the local press and suitably distressed to add a bit of authenticity. From what I remember the pitchfork was later auctioned off to aid the war effort and now resides in an American museum.

Nearby Eaglesham House was being used as an army barracks at the time and was home to some Polish soldiers and Hess was apparantly taken there to be questioned before being transferred to Busby. Alastair Dinsmore also informs me that both Giffnock and Govan police stations also claim to have had Hess as a resident, so it looks as if our German visitor must have had quite a busy night being ferried round all these different places!

Recently I took a walk up to the crash site aided by a map that Alastair sent me which had all the distances measured out on it showing the exact location of the wreckage of the plane. Unfortunately it looks as if any remaining scraps have been lost for good as the site is now under the new Glasgow South Orbital road, although it may just be possible to do a Past & Present shot, so I'll see what I can do.....
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Postby Alycidon » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:57 pm

If you go back to page 5 there is a past and present Ariel view
[img]http://www.jhowie.force9.co.uk/emu314carcream.gif[/img]

We must perform a Quirkafleeg!!!!
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Postby Apollo » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:53 pm

I doubt the censors would have allowed the media to dream up a story that didn't accord with their wishes at the time.

Personally, I have to question the voracity of a story that claims reporters on a farm had to go and buy a new pitchfork and distress it to make it look used. It's not the sort of implement that there's only one of for everyone to share. Would this be same one that appeared in Mr McLean's filmed interview, I wonder?

For an interesting take on the capture, that last posting reminded me of a message seen while hunting down PoW camp info, and that had slipped my mind.

This claims Hess was taken prisoner by a gent in a Tuxedo, who strapped on his "Sam Brown belt with revolver" and left a soiree to investigate a crash, and brought Hess back to the house.

Sounds more like a story dreamt up by the Boy's Own brigade, affronted that a lowly ploughman (with pitchfork!) should have been the one to bag the prize of Hitler's deputy.

Make up your own minds, the unedited message as I found it follows. I might add, Hess spent more than 2 nights in Scotland, arrived May 10, then Tower of London, May 17 for 4 days. He spent the following years in South Wales, and wasn't flown to Nuremberg until 1945. I'd say the rest of the following story is about as accurate as its dates (other than stating he was never in Comrie):-

Note - there are accounts that Rudolph Hess was held at this camp for 1 night when he crash landed in Scotland. However, the following email from Peter R McNaughton would refute that:

"You may be interested in knowing that Rudolph Hess never stayed at Camp 21 in Comrie. He did, however, stay at Buchanan Castle some 40 miles away, near Buchlyvie.
The father of a friend of mine was the one who captured him. The story goes that Mr. Clark was at a soiree in the evening and heard the crash. On looking out he saw flames coming from a crashed aircraft on the hillside.
He was dressed in a tuxedo and strapped on his Sam Brown belt with revolver over it and went to investigate. He came across this figure moaning and staggering around. He drew his revolver and then took the man to the house where the soiree was being held. There the prisoner was handed over to the military police. It was only later that he realized that his revolver was not loaded! And only much later that he found out that his prisoner was, in fact, Hess.
The following day, much to his embarrassment the Duke of Hamilton, a Spitfire pilot in Edinburgh, was asked to go and identify him. Apparently Hess had met him in Berlin in or around 1936. Hess thought that by naming him and suggesting he knew him, that the Duke could identify him and would lead him to Churchill. Hess, of course, was a lunatic. He had apparently hoped to come to an arrangement of stopping the War. The following day he was sent to London where he was incarcerated in the Tower of London until he was flown to Nuremberg.
The article that everyone quotes was in either the Daily Mail or the Daily Mirror. As with many rags the reporter jazzed up the article with this comment. [That he was held at the POW camp]
Rudolph Hess was never in Comrie Camp (Camp 21) but was in Scotland for only two nights. The first when he was captured (or gave himself up) and the second at Buchanan castle in Bucklyvie near Kippen and Loch Lomond in Stirlingshire.
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Postby Graham » Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:02 am

Apollo wrote:I doubt the censors would have allowed the media to dream up a story that didn't accord with their wishes at the time.

[/i]


I beg to differ there :) What would play better in the media...the tale of a plucky farm hand who captured a top-ranking Nazi with his trusty pitchfork, or what actually happened, with Mr McLean helping the injured Hess to his cottage and his mum making him a nice cup of tea? Surely the "pitchfork" version of events would stir the imagination more? Or are you suggesting that the media wasn't used for propoganda purposes during the war? :wink:

From what I remember the cat was let out of the bag in a letter to the Glasgow Herald in the 70s by someone that was involved in setting the pitchfork scenario up.

I'll look out the original source of this info and post it
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