How much are our photos worth?

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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby BrigitDoon » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:07 am

:D

Peetabix wrote:If it wasn't for the morons needing help most SYSADMIN's would be out of a job. :D

Thank the Supreme One that I was only the man's deputy...

He did observe one day: "We'd have a cracking system if we didn't have any users on it.

On a clear disk you can seek forever. A happy system is an empty sytem... and any other hoary old chestnut...

Wonderful pithy observation:

Peetabix wrote:Take pictures, be happy.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Peetabix » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:15 am

He did observe one day: "We'd have a cracking system if we didn't have any users on it.


So true. :)
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby BrigitDoon » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:39 am

Now I think of it, we had a guy called, I think, Mike Mayfield, a DEC guru who was over from Seattle wanting to test the latest networking system that he'd designed.

We had the most suitable configuration in Europe and really needed what he had to offer.

So our head of department and sysadmin guy watched him patch the system. All well and good. Then...

"Right, lads, I'll just need to bring the system down and reboot..."

"Er... we've got users on it..."

"Yeah, so?"

Then we had to explain to the guy a few fundamental principles about running a large printing firm and the loss of turnover occasioned by sudden downtime. About £10,000 an hour at that time...
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby potatojunkie » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:30 am

Peetabix wrote:I would have bitten your hand off for the opportunity and so would most people. You have to start somewhere.

I don't see why someone's photo taken on a mobile/cheapo camera is any less important than a pro who is there for pure financial gain.

It's not as if the photos are just being taken so the band can have some lovely pictures to pin up and coo at in their tour bus. They're used to promote the tour (and subsequent tours) and to indirectly generate revenue for the record company. Why shouldn't the people who create those images be paid for them? It's all very well saying you have to start somewhere, but how can you continue when there's always a fresh crop of people willing to be exploited for free?

Not that I ever work paid jobs at gigs, mind. I've seen some amazing artists for free and I love the work. I'm generally shooting images for friends' bands websites, mind, or for Alternative Nation, a local community site. It's not "all about the money" so much as "not taking food off someone else's plate".

Photos taken on mobiles/cheapo cameras are far more likely to be horrible. They are. Sorry. Especially at gigs. Double-especially in Tut's or Macsorleys or Sleazy's or the ABC2.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Peetabix » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:17 am

They're used to promote the tour (and subsequent tours) and to indirectly generate revenue for the record company.


That's what fans are for. They buy the album, they buy the singles, they do street teaming, they give up their pics. All those things generate revenue for the record company.

Like you said, most of the camera phone images are rubbish but it's that persons rubbish that wee reminder of a great night and they want the world to know it.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby metal_meg » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:34 am

Peetabix wrote:If it wasn't for the morons needing help most SYSADMIN's would be out of a job. :D

Take pictures, be happy.


So to try to get you to understand the original point -

If I contacted all the companies who needed SYSADMIN's and offered all IT and networking support, at the same level, completely free of charge do you think the SYSADMIN would still be in the job?

If I turned up at your work and offered to do your job at the same level for free do you think your boss would still keep you on?

The thing is everyone loses when free services are offered.

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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Josef » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:17 pm

And so there you have the salient point. 'At the same level'. There's no doubt that, almost without exception, a company offered any service at a substantially lower cost than the one they currently pay will jump at it.

IT's probably not the best comparator here, though, since one of the main requirements is continuity of service, whereas what has been described here is piecework. And if you'd ever seen the quality of some of the eejits that turn up for interview for fairly well-paid jobs in that industry, you wouldn't hold out much hope for even a reasonable-quality free alternative anyway.

So, what's being said here?

That where a publication can get roughly the same images, of equal quality, at widely differing costs, they should take the expensive one because that's that person's sole source of income? Well, that's the choice of that individual, surely?

That photography should be a closed shop? With a few minor exceptions, the protectionist argument has been comprehensively lost in every industry.

That greedy corporations are raking in huge profits on the back of cost-cutting measures that put professionals out of work? Well, possibly. But that applies across the board. In the publishing industry, most local newspapers have reduced staff to the extent that they now often have only an editor and a single reporter, with freelance and unpaid 'work experience' staff making up the difference. Yes, it may be a scandal, but it's certainly not unique to photographers.

On a couple of the previous points : gig photography - In all my years reading the music press, I can recall only one or two live gig photos that I so much as more than glanced at. One photo of a bloke playing a guitar or with a screwed-up face and his mouth open is much like another. To that extent, I couldn't care less whether it's a high quality uninteresting photo taken by a pro or a low to medium uninteresting photo taken by an amateur enthusiast. What I do recall - and very vividly - are the many set-piece band shoots. That's where the professionalism is noticeable, and it'll always be in demand.

And the cost of promo photos for a band will almost invariably come off the band's bottom line rather than the record company's. The vast majority of professional musicians barely scrape a living.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby cumbo » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:21 pm

To the people who come after us our photos are priceless......its a hobby ..no?
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Josef » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:37 pm

cumbo wrote:To the people who come after us our photos are priceless......its a hobby ..no?


Indeed, and I'm sure it would be possible to have an argument over "Should meddling hobbyists be able to take the bread from the mouths of hard-working professionals" versus "Should jaded old hacks be able to deny genuine enthusiasts the chance to display their handiwork on a wider platform".

Er, no, hang on.... :)
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Dexter St. Clair » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:46 pm

the protectionist argument has been comprehensively lost in every industry.


Tried teaching without a qualification, or vigilantism without being a member of the Police Federation? Of course you can operate away without being a member of the BMA but that's just slack controls.
"I before E, except after C" works in most cases but there are exceptions.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Dexter St. Clair » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:45 pm

here's an example of a professional photographer. Set up a site of a popular community activity and use it to sell photographs that you took of that open event. Brilliant.

Good photographer though I much prefer his earlier work.

http://www.biggarbonfire.org.uk/index.html
"I before E, except after C" works in most cases but there are exceptions.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby potatojunkie » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:28 pm

Josef wrote:[W]here a publication can get roughly the same images, of equal quality, at widely differing costs …

Josef wrote:In all my years reading the music press, I can recall only one or two live gig photos that I so much as more than glanced at. One photo of a bloke playing a guitar or with a screwed-up face and his mouth open is much like another. To that extent, I couldn't care less whether it's a high quality uninteresting photo taken by a pro or a low to medium uninteresting photo taken by an amateur enthusiast.

Hoom hom. Bones of contention, here, though they may be down to personal preference. An uninteresting photo of a bloke playing guitar is a crap photo, regardless of resolution, clarity, or other issues of technical quality. Good gig photos capture something of the mood, and should engage the viewer on an emotional level. I've seen plenty of examples. I'd go so far as to say I've made a couple.

In fact, a friend of mine is exhibiting some of her concert work at the Thirteenth Note if anyone fancies a swatch. Kicks off tomorrow night, as it happens.

Josef wrote:And the cost of promo photos for a band will almost invariably come off the band's bottom line rather than the record company's. The vast majority of professional musicians barely scrape a living.

See, there's a great community in Glasgow at the lower end of the scale. People are happy to donate time to things they believe in and enjoy. By the time you're selling out the ABC main hall or the Carling Academy, though, you ought to be paying the people who are working for you.

Is it morally justifiable to exploit people if they don't mind being exploited? This is what it comes down to, I guess. It's an old question.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby potatojunkie » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:38 pm

Dexter St. Clair wrote:here's an example of a professional photographer. Set up a site of a popular community activity and use it to sell photographs that you took of that open event. Brilliant.

Good photographer though I much prefer his earlier work.

http://www.biggarbonfire.org.uk/index.html
Eh. Not a fan, to be honest.

It's fun watching the copyright notice grow, though. The earlier images have a small, fairly respectable notice in the bottom-right corner. In the shots from 2007it gets ugly and intrusive, being about five times the size and sitting right in the bottom-middle. The most recent photographs have been largely engulfed by a vast © smack-dab in the centre of the image. One can only imagine that this year's pics will be nothing but copyright notices with tiny photographs in the bottom-right corner.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby Josef » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:57 pm

potatojunkie wrote:Is it morally justifiable to exploit people if they don't mind being exploited? This is what it comes down to, I guess. It's an old question.


Agreed. I sympathise with both sides here, I suppose; I just had my back put up slightly by the pro-pro argument put up earlier. But there's still a discussion to be had on what constitutes exploitation.

potatojunkie wrote:
Josef wrote:And the cost of promo photos for a band will almost invariably come off the band's bottom line rather than the record company's. The vast majority of professional musicians barely scrape a living.

See, there's a great community in Glasgow at the lower end of the scale. People are happy to donate time to things they believe in and enjoy. By the time you're selling out the ABC main hall or the Carling Academy, though, you ought to be paying the people who are working for you.


You'ld be surprised. Possibly. JohnR posted a link somewhere to an article (John? Please? :) ) on band economics written by a well known muso (Dave Grohl, possibly?) which went into detail on the example of a (typical) band which sells 250,000 albums, but ends up with the band members earning barely the minimum wage yet still in debt to the record company.

Apologies for the diversion.
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Re: How much are our photos worth?

Postby potatojunkie » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:39 pm

Josef wrote:You'ld be surprised. Possibly. JohnR posted a link somewhere to an article (John? Please? :) ) on band economics written by a well known muso (Dave Grohl, possibly?) which went into detail on the example of a (typical) band which sells 250,000 albums, but ends up with the band members earning barely the minimum wage yet still in debt to the record company.

Courtney Love wrote a similar-sounding piece on the subject once. The gist was that bands end up signing horrible contracts. Buried stipulations in the small print land them with fronting all touring costs. I'm not sure this covers photography, though, unless they sneak it in under PR costs, which they probably do. High-end concert work is conducted through PR agencies, but I can't imagine they'll be passing along any savings they make by failing to pay photographers.

My perspective on the issue is clouded by the many examples of horribly exploitative and restrictive releases circulating on the concert groups on Flickr. The Foo Fighters, for instance, use Nasty Little Man for their PR in the US. Here is an example of their infamous release form.
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