Leaving Wi-Fi Open

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Leaving Wi-Fi Open

Postby blink148 » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:40 pm

After reading through a few of the threads concerning Wi-Fi I'm a bit confused with the general consensus.

I've recently returned from the States where (at least where I was) home Wi-Fi is generally left open on purpose.

Neighbours, friends, war-drivers, any old joe on the street - can jump on.

Is the general sentiment here that it should be locked up?

I know that's the reasoning from the telco's (now, I see, it's becoming more difficult to leave Wi-Fi open than not).

Why?

Bandwidth tariffs? Security Concerns? Legal Concerns? Something else i'm missing?

My confusion probably stems from the fact that it's pretty straightforward for anyone even slightly tech savvy to secure their data in a superior way to WEP etc..., the package bandwidth limits seem high enough so that the odd movie download isn't going to hurt and a saved log can dispel legal concerns. (With open networks everywhere, surely it becomes far more difficult for any snooping authority to legislate and control due to the complexity of connection methods?) Obviously I'm missing the real reason.


I leave my network open and suggest that others do the same. I keep an eye on it of course, but I'm happy that the kids down the street can jump on to do their homework or the guy across the road can check his e-mail. Maybe they're cheapskates, maybe they're skint, maybe they're chancers? Who cares? If it starts to impede what I want to do I can easily kick them off.

I went to the coast last weekend and had to find a connection for work. What a bloody nightmare!
I refuse to pay those BeanScene swines a penny so it was netstumbler ahoy. Eventually grabbed a network at an open hotel, did what I had to do - went in and bought a couple of pints that I wouldn't have normally - just to say 'good job' to the techs, and on my way.

Obviously I'm missing why everyone is locking up and suggesting I should do the same.
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Postby allyharp » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:46 am

Is it possible to see who's connected to your network? I'd be interested in leaving it open and logging any connections just to see. I live in a residential area though so I think it would be unlikely that anyone would connect.
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Postby cybers » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:35 am

I think the real reason is that internet fraud is on the rise.
Stolen credit card purchases do you really want most of them made from your connection...Then Mr Police man waking you up at 6 AM shining a torch in your face whilst you wonder WTF the loud bang was...
Or maybe just that your nieghbour is a sexual deviant who is using your unsecured network to upload pics of whatever .....
Takes us back to the six o'clock alarmed call.
Or perhaps your 15 year old nieghbours daughter downloading all the latest MP3 or movies whilst she knows you are asleep.
Alarm call for 6 please...

Could go on and on and on but i am sure you get the idea by now.
Not to mention just your own basic security...
We have all bought things over the net whether we like the idea or not the details are logged and stored on your PC...
Do you really want the 15 year old lad next door with the I.Q of 168 finding out you bought the Anal Penetrator GTi....

Lock it up....
If cheese gets mouldy you throw it out...
Why buy it mouldy in the first place ?
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Postby scallopboy » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:39 am

If you leave your home wifi open you might as well leave your keys in the car and your house unlocked with signs saying please rob me all over them. While you at it, you may as well put a big sign up saying please carry out illegal or rather shady internet activities here on my free wifi connection. Be sure to call the police and let them know when will be a convenient time to serve a warrant, remove anything and everything from your house for investigation and lock you up pending a trial.

What's your address? 8O
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Postby John » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:01 am

If you leave your wifi open I and other may be able to:

--access and change your router settings to redirect your DNS

--use a wifi capable packet sniffer to capture all traffic between your pc and the internet which can then be reconstructed exposing everything you do.

--access your PCs and data held upon them

--use your internet connection to illegally hack sites and access illegal content

--use ARP poisoning techniques to force all of your traffic to redirect through one of my devices where I can inject false data into the TCP packets or even decrypt SSL traffic.

--etc

--etc

This does happen and so I would never leave my wifi open.
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Postby blink148 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:12 am

aha.. so it is the security issue.

Can I maybe suggest that most of these fears are a bit misguided?

First of all, for the ARP poisoners, high IQ deviants, or even the slightly more involved computer afficianados whom you suggest surround me, waiting to pounce - the Wi-Fi security available on routers would be very little barrier. With simple tools you can sniff and crack locked networks in a matter of a few hours. (standard WEP has been done in 7 minutes I believe). I'll refrain from linking to any of the applications as I'll assume that's frowned upon.

Secondly, while I suggest leaving the network open I am not suggesting that you leave the router open. Access to that should be locked down via MAC address of course, as should your own static IP address. Control of that stays in your hands and a quick check of the logs now and again will confirm that. For the super-paranoid, remember you always have access to the reset button.

As to the police knocking on my door at 6am - sure, I don't keep an eye on the traffic 24/7 but I check it enough to know that nothing too shady is passing through on a regular basis. If someone seems to be abusing it, it's a simple matter of locking them out. Assume for a second that someone has broken your locked network without your knowledge and downloaded something illegal, then assume someone has joined my open network and done the same. I know what one I would rather try and prove wasn't me. To be fair, both are as technologically provable but to the novice I believe my open network would be easier to explain.

To keep this in perspective though it's far more usual that people check e-mail, browse the newspapers and watch youtube. Not everyone is out to screw you over.

Finally, as to the idea that my computer is easily accessible just because my internet connection is open, is quite a jump of reason. My machines are locked down far more than simple router security can offer and to the chap who suggests that I give my address so he can come steal my stuff. Sure. You give me yours too and I'll come along to your locked network and see who can access what exactly.

I would suggest that much of the fear-mongering is misplaced and with some simple security measures it is quite safe to leave Wi-Fi open for people to share - as it should be in my opinion. Not one for conspiracy theories myself but capitalism would dictate that closing every network would lead to increased profits for the telco's as each individual would have to pay for access. To paraphrase Dave Barry - 'advertising is good to show you exactly what the product is not'. Every time I see an ad telling me to lock up my access for my benefit I get a wee tingle. It's no surprise I think that the access providers are the ones pushing this ideal.

I haven't addressed any particular fear in much technological depth I know, as the post is becoming epic, but could happily do so. I think you can get the idea though.

To the chap early in the thread who wants to know how it's set up, if you give me the make of your router I'll try and help you out.
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Postby Apollo » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:26 am

I think the original poster misses the point that average 'J Public' does not have knowledge or technical ability to lock down their own home network, or use any of the clever techniques available to those with such knowledge, and are wholly dependent on PC-Universe staff promising them that their latest batch of boxes is "The Latest, Safest and Most Secure" they can buy.

It's becoming clear that in this country, the authorities are out to secure a conviction in the case of any sort of internet-based perversion or fraudulent activity, and if they can sniff activity back to a particular point, then that point is assumed to be the guilty party, and to use an old expression "Ignorance is no excuse".

Fraudsters and organised criminal are not also incompetent, and number smart network technical staff amongst their numbers, so getting hold of a "secure" network with a weakness is not a problem. However, they're not stupid either, and won't waste their time and resources to hack into a secure point, if they can use a nice inviting, open and unprotected node, especially if they can return to to it, so the poor sucker being used looks like a regular and repeat offender.

As for checking access logs... Bad Idea. Forum managers have already discovered that if they don't check posts and moderate, then they're not likely to be sued for adverse content. However, if they do moderate and demonstrate that they are aware of what is posted, then it seems they can be sued for libellous content. Doesn't bode well if it can be shown that you inspected your logs if something goes wrong.

Leaving your access open as there are "No real problems" seems to come from the same mould as "What have you got to hide if you're not in favour of surveillance/ID Cards".
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Postby blink148 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:53 am

Hi Apollo.

You make a couple of interesting points but I would of course suggest that I'm not missing any point.

First of all, locking down a box, at least as securely as a WEP key offers is a relatively straightforward task. Sure, much of the public will find even that beyond their grasp and to them the false security that WI-Fi offers will continue to seem like a good idea. This is the same group of people incidentally who would find it impossible to 'hack into someone elses box' even if they were on the same network.

I'm assuming however, maybe erroneously, that many people on this forum are reasonably tech savvy and it is to them I am making the point rather than my technophobe gang down the pub.

As to organised crime. Maybe I've deleted the memo but unless methods have changed from when I first posted this thread, (which I sort of hope, as the image of besuited goons war-driving around Glasgow in search of open networks to plot their nefarious activities is too good not to be true) users face a far more threatening risk of being compromised through their internet connection itself rather than any LAN. I would suggest that even in the unlikely event that your connection becomes targeted by Pauly and Sal the fact that you have it closed would be so far down the list of reasons on whether to use it or not - that the security is insignificant. This is over and above the fact of course that Zombies can be bought easily by the thousands which are far better suited to the job. The amount of effort and manpower needed to use a concerted war-driving technique could of course help the unemployment figures in the city, so I live in hope.

As for checking access logs. I simply keep an eye that no one person is abusing the bandwidth. They do and they're banned. Straightforward really. A few neighbours have jumped on and clogged it up a bit with torrents so I just told them to keep that down to a minimum and they can continue to jump on when they need to. Funnily enough a wee woman a few houses down wanted to get e-mails from her family so I just got her to buy a range amplifier and boost the signal. Now, rather than paying a monthly bill she jumps on a few times a week to check her e-mail. Is that really such a bad idea?

The point you make
Leaving your access open as there are "No real problems" seems to come from the same mould as "What have you got to hide if you're not in favour of surveillance/ID Cards".
has thrown me a bit as I can't see my arguments being analogous to that at all. If anything I would say that my arguments would have put me in the opposite camp.

It would seem, at least so far, that the main objections to my initial point are personal security concerns, which I suspected would be the case.


Managed to track down a rather more eloquent opinion than mine on the matter from the NY Times OP-ED page:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/16/opinion/16lee.html?ex=1300165200&en=9c2bf43394d80ae7&ei=5089

Personally, I think sharing your connection is just being a good neighbor. Think of it as the 21st century equivalent of lending a cup of sugar.
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Postby barry » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:18 pm

There was an episode of the Real Hustle on were they sat outside a guy's house and watched him buy flights online and buy stuff on eBay.
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Postby Apollo » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:40 am

I think there's a real case of "What you can't see can't hurt you" with this issue.

Because your connection, your network, your bandwidth, and your account (which YOU will be paying for in the UK, unless you're very fortunate) is being accessed by wireless, you can't see it happening. Nor can you see how many are jumping on to your connection (until your provider cuts you off).

Suppose for a moment that everything was the same, but that the connections were not wireless, and it hasn't been invented.

How would you respond to a stream of strangers knocking your door, network cable in hand, and asking where your hub was so they could plug in for a while, since they noticed you had one?

Remember, you don't get the option of saying no, as we're reproducing an open wireless system, but with wire!

Imagine half a dozen of your neighbours plugged in with wires trailing out the door/windows, and two or three to folk sitting in the street.

Suppose they want to stream, or download the latest Holywood blockbuster?

There was another example I saw of someone living beside flats or a high-rise. If they left their connection open and word circulated about it, they've got the potential for dozens of opportunist browsers to piggyback on their open connection, and for free!

I'm afraid that while I'd be one of the first to appreciate the advantages of open connections, and would like to have them so that I could use the internet anywhere, I'm afraid the reality is that it's not a runner once everyone gets to know about it, and concludes they don't need to have their own account: "Oh, I'll just piggyback, there's bound to be an open point nearby". The idea collapses as the few that do subscribe get overwhelmed. There's no control, so there's no reason to assume they won't.

Even a pukka network needs a manager to carry out load-balancing.

Promote open and free wireless access by all means, but realistically, that means some sort of organised system, with sufficient points and bandwidth to carry the load as usage and numbers grow. That way, everyone can benefit, and not a few fortunate individuals lucky enough to live next to a 'Power-User' :D
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Postby potatojunkie » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:13 pm

Apollo wrote:I think there's a real case of "What you can't see can't hurt you" with this issue.

Because your connection, your network, your bandwidth, and your account (which YOU will be paying for in the UK, unless you're very fortunate) is being accessed by wireless, you can't see it happening. Nor can you see how many are jumping on to your connection (until your provider cuts you off).

Wait, what? Only if you go out of your way not to look.
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Postby Apollo » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:22 pm

potatojunkie wrote:
Apollo wrote:I think there's a real case of "What you can't see can't hurt you" with this issue.

Because your connection, your network, your bandwidth, and your account (which YOU will be paying for in the UK, unless you're very fortunate) is being accessed by wireless, you can't see it happening. Nor can you see how many are jumping on to your connection (until your provider cuts you off).

Wait, what? Only if you go out of your way not to look.


I think not. I've not seen access logs or or the usage monitor pop-up without being asked. You have to go find it, and know what it is, and what it means.

Try not to think of the average WiFi user not as a software or network savvy individual like a fair number of folk in here appear to be, but as Joe and Josephine Public, who have no more idea of the concept of looking to see if anyone is using their wireless network than they do of activating WEP.

Their interest is 100% on how easily they can use the web and email without anything remotely techie getting in the way.

I go to folk's homes when they complain of dead and dying computer's, and ask about their last defrag or scandisk, or if they delete tmp files, and that tells me how many ordinary folk will run their own network security. Most are happy to pay a generic PC World type to 'install' their PC at home, and never touch the oily bits until it grinds to halt.

You and I might sniff the logs every day. Your average owner is likely to go to door an look for a lumberjack if you mention logs to them. They're not interested, and the arrival of XP and Vista, which can install adapters with next to no user knowledge mean they bother even less.
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Postby viceroy » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:28 pm

Apollo wrote:Their interest is 100% on how easily they can use the web and email without anything remotely techie getting in the way.


That's my attitude precisely and I'm not ashamed to state it. Other than doing straightforward routine things I leave my pc well alone. If something goes really wrong I'll get a professional IT person in to fix it. And why not? If I feel sick I'll go and see my doctor, if I've got toothache I'll make an appointment with my dentist, if I had a car [I don't, thankfully] and it broke down I'd get a mechanic to repair it and if the picture goes on my tv I'll phone for an engineer. That's what such people are for, so what's the difference where pc's are concerned?

I'm not having a go at anybody here, but in general it does seem that pc users are automatically expected to to become personal experts on IT matters and if they don't and something goes wrong they've only got themselves to blame. It's complete nonsense.
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Postby Verbal Kint » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:31 am

My two cents are lock it up preferably with WPA2 if you can as it is not as easily cracked.

I teach a networking class and give a demonstration of how to crack WEP starting with a victim setting up a system with WEP enabled. Within a few slides of the presentation I have it cracked even without an SSID visable.

If you really have to go wireless make sure it is secured if not keep it simple. I use wires for everything.

I agree with Viceroy it is a bit of a strange attitude these days to assume that everyone who uses a computer is a whizz, I can assure you that is not the case my 80 year old grandmother uses her computer daily but is certainly no expert.
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Postby ninatoo » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:59 am

My X set up a wireless network in my house, for the kids, connecting their computer to mine as well as the internet.

Someone out there very quickly detected us, downloaded their printer onto my computer (a mistake I believe), over-riding my own printer, and then proceeded to download porn, and lots of it. The strange thing is that the history showed up in internet explorer's history, and actually downloaded pictures to the kid's computer. The guy at the computer shop says that wasn't possible but I am here to tell you - it is. Before you all suggest my kids were exploring the net - they were not even home the weekend that I caught this stuff.

Now I did not like that one bit. My kids now have no access to the internet because I disconnected them for their own safety, and also because I object to someone out there called "Matthew" downloading that crap onto my kids' computer and getting his jollies for free. Was this slack security measure my choice? No. My mistake was thinking my X knew what he was doing when he set it up, but apparently no security parameters were set up at ALL. So now I will have to redo the whole thing, and hope like mad no-one else can subject my kids to that stuff. And also, as someone pointed out to me, if the person out there getting freebies from your pc happens to go to an illegal site, it is YOUR ISP number that will be registered. Oh joy.

Lock it. Oh it would be nice to think all people were as nice as your neighbours, blink. But they aren't.

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