Doomsday in Haghill

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Postby crusty_bint » Tue May 08, 2007 7:03 pm

No offence but it's a nonsense to think there are fewer routes out of poverty today or that folk from poorer backgrounds have less of a chance of lifting themselves out of it than they did at any other time. Simple fact of the matter is that if you want to succeed: you will. It isn't easy, well I haven't found it easy (in the sense that I sometimes feel il-equipped due to my social and economic background), but where there is a will...
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Postby Josef » Tue May 08, 2007 8:44 pm

Agreed. And in fact one could argue there are substantially more ways out, now that the social barrier to many of the professions has been removed (Crusty's experience notwithstanding).

It does, nontheless, remain criminal that the very generation that were the first to enjoy full grants, free education, free healthcare (etc) were the very ones who pulled up the drawbridge when they had to start paying for other people to benefit.
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Postby crusty_bint » Tue May 08, 2007 8:48 pm

here here.

Also, i should clarify I'm not saying my experience has been negative merely illustrating that everyone has hurdles they need to overcome. That goes for people from all backgrounds actually.

If you want it, stop bleating about it and do something.
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Postby Strike Team » Tue May 08, 2007 8:58 pm

crusty_bint wrote:If you want it, stop bleating about it and do something.


Absolutely agree!
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Postby Dexter St. Clair » Tue May 08, 2007 9:30 pm

I grew up in the 1930s with an unemployed father. He did not riot. He got on his bike and looked for work, and he went on looking until he found it.


Of course his dad had a bike and unfortunately for four million people he did not explain to his son the outcome of destroying organisations that represent workers or the consequences of free market economies operating in just the one country.

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If you want it, stop bleating about it and do something.


Looking forward to seeing you sell your pull yourself up by the bootstraps economIC theory on Richard and Judy.
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Postby crusty_bint » Tue May 08, 2007 9:32 pm

In English please?
here i go, it's coming for me through the trees
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Postby Josef » Tue May 08, 2007 9:50 pm

Dexter St. Clair wrote:
I grew up in the 1930s with an unemployed father. He did not riot. He got on his bike and looked for work, and he went on looking until he found it.


Of course his dad had a bike and unfortunately for four million people he did not explain to his son the outcome of destroying organisations that represent workers or the consequences of free market economies operating in just the one country.

If you want it, stop bleating about it and do something.


Looking forward to seeing you sell your pull yourself up by the bootstraps economIC theory on Richard and Judy.


Would it be snobbish of me to suggest that if you are watching Richard and Judy then you have already decided that the 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' option is not one that you want to pursue? (I am well prepared to accept the answer 'yes' to this, btw, since I have never seen the programme in my life and am relying on received opinion).

I don't really want to disagree with Dex here. But I think we're (to a reasonable degree) talking two different things. The effects of the Thatcherite revolution were absolutely crippling in towns which were, essentially, single, manual labour-dependent, industry. I spent the first part of my childhood in one of these - pre-Thatcher, but the same thing, essentially.

Workers with settled homes, jobs and families suddenly found themselves with no income and nowhere else to go to get one. Middle-aged people who had grown up with the assumption of a Job For Life suddenly had no job, no other (to an alternative employer) applicable skills, and no other employers in a feasible radius in any case.

What is (in my opinion) being discussed here is opportunities for young people in Glasgow, where none of the above restrictions apply.

[Edit] Dex is quoting Norman Tebbit circa the Brixton (and other inner city) riots, as immortalised in The Specials single Ghost Town, for you youngsters :) .
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Postby Vladimir » Wed May 09, 2007 12:05 pm

crusty_bint wrote:No offence but it's a nonsense to think there are fewer routes out of poverty today or that folk from poorer backgrounds have less of a chance of lifting themselves out of it than they did at any other time. Simple fact of the matter is that if you want to succeed: you will. It isn't easy, well I haven't found it easy (in the sense that I sometimes feel il-equipped due to my social and economic background), but where there is a will...

Is the point not that we can't all pull ourselves up, because free market capitalism demands the existence of, in fact creates, an underclass of people to prop up the higher classes. If, say, every person living in poverty in Scotland were to 'oull themselves up', all at once, who would empty the bins, or serve them lunch, or clean the toilets? Nobody, hence they would have to invite immigrants, to do the same jobs. Basically we would be at square one all over again.

I realise that isnt exactly what you were saying, but it must be admitted that free market capitalism in no way leads towards equality of any kind.

Now, to give an example of an alternative route. What has happened in the elections in France, is nothing short of a disaster, and Britian and the US are loving it. France was a good country to begin with. Right now, the facts are about France are as follows.

The 'stagnating/sluggish economy' spoken of constantly by the anglo-saxon/right-wing media grew at 2.3% in 2006, not massive, but not 'stagnant'. By comparison the economy of the UK, the chief slagger of France lets say, grew at 2.7%. Not really much higher. In Belarus, where the government controls 80% of the economy, growth was at 8%. In Sweden, where the government excercises a great deal of control, the rate was 4.2%! Now take all this into account before going on to the principal facts:

France has the lowest poverty rate in the developed world, the lowest level of income inequality and the best public services the state can provide. The kind of desparation, decline, decay whatever that you get in Scotland EVERYWHERE you go, is rare in France, though not inexistent.

Yet people think its time for change, and elect Maggie Thatcher in male form. It really makes you wonder, and makes me extremely angry!

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Now Im not just getting at Scotland, as people always interpret what I say about France as. Im just giving an example (and quoting several different countries) that with a bit more government intervention, and an abandonment of this me,me,me capitalism we have at present, we could really improve peoples lives. And, just to calm peoples fears, still have capitalism in place, just in a slightly more controlled form.

In other words, social mobility, but with the low level of greed we all 'naturally need' remaining in place.
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Postby Vladimir » Wed May 09, 2007 12:13 pm

Can I just say something? What the hell has all above got to do with a post-apocalyptic zombie horror film! ::): Mind you, Sarko is a bit like a vampire, so horror may well come into it...
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Postby AlanM » Wed May 09, 2007 12:34 pm

Vlad - I don't think the people doing the un/low skilled jobs were the issue it was the ones who are totally dependant on state benefits and show no inclination to alter their situation - well why would they when they can be supplied with their daily needs without lifting a finger.
Who needs a six pack....when you've got a keg!!!
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Postby Vladimir » Wed May 09, 2007 1:43 pm

AlanM wrote:Vlad - I don't think the people doing the un/low skilled jobs were the issue it was the ones who are totally dependant on state benefits and show no inclination to alter their situation - well why would they when they can be supplied with their daily needs without lifting a finger.


That is one of the biggest questions facing modern society...
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Postby crusty_bint » Thu May 10, 2007 2:15 pm

I was going to explain what I meant but I dont think in needs any further explaination... so I'll just say this instead:

I know of no safer depository of the ultimate powers of Society but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the Remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion.
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Postby My Kitten » Thu May 10, 2007 2:19 pm

AlanM wrote:Vlad - I don't think the people doing the un/low skilled jobs were the issue it was the ones who are totally dependant on state benefits and show no inclination to alter their situation - well why would they when they can be supplied with their daily needs without lifting a finger.


supplied with daily needs on £59 a week, in which you have to electricity/gas/clothe/feed/council tax etc and I dont even have the pleasure of smoking!!!

/rant
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Postby Graham » Thu May 10, 2007 2:34 pm

My Kitten wrote: I dont even have the pleasure of smoking!!!

/rant


Pleasure?

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Postby Sharon » Thu May 10, 2007 2:39 pm

Anyone else see a squirrel when they look at that picture?
Beware of yawning dogs.
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