Glasgow's Cycling Heritage

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Postby Dugald » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:14 pm

Certainly, as Dave points out, there was less traffic in those days: no traffic, therefore no need for the many traffic signals and Stop signs one would encounter doing that same "coast" ride today. And of course, if we didn't have traffic controls to handle today's volume of traffic, our mobility would be considerably reduced.

Yes, as Onyirtodd reminds us, some cyclists do habitually ignore traffic signs. I must confess that I have on quite a few occasions elected not to stop at a Stop sign. This would only have been at a Stop sign where it was readily seen there was no traffic in the area ( it amounted really, to treating the Stop sign as a Yield sign). This was not an habitual occurrence. Traffic lights I did not ignore.

I agree wholeheartedly with James when he tells us that ignoring traffic lights is stupid. It's stupid, because it is very dangerous to the cyclist, and it's stupid because it endangers other innocent people.

And yes, as Hervey reminds us, many motorists ignore cyclists, and it is very seldom that the motorist suffers because of the cyclist. It is dangerous, and I'd venture to say even more dangerous, for power-driven vehicles to ignore traffic signals.The only common sense solution to bad-riding habits and bad-driving habits, I guess, is education.

The wearing of helmets by cyclists I feel is something that should be enforced by the police. Not all cyclists believe the wearing of a helmet is a worthwhile safety feature. I believe it is. I belonged to a cycling club in Toronto at one time and they had a slogan to which all new members were quickly introduced. The slogan stated: "If you don't believe you need a helmet, you're probably right!"..
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Postby Cyclo2000 » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:17 am

Re. this helmet business...it's an exageration of risk and protection to suggest that anyone who rides without a helmet will die and anyone who does will live. Or even to suggest that anyone who does will survive unscathed and anyone who does not will survive in a vegatative state.
Most Pro's only wear helmets in competition. They never would wear one when training. In training they're on the open road, just like you and I. Most clubs now insist on a helmet for participation on the club run but this has as much to do with the fact that you'll need to get used to wearing one in the heat of a peleton as much as any idea of percieved safety or advantage. The whole helmet thing is simply another example of wooly thinking and the cotton wool kids, (apparently) risk free culture that we're engendering. A huge mistake to suggest it should be mandatory - it's an unneccessary burocracy and a virtual tax. If a car hits you, your helmet will not save you.
As to cyclists and lights, well if they do it in front of a polis they should be arrested. Pretty simple surely? If you did it in a car ye'd get done. As cyclists we have a duty of care to ourselves and to pedestrians. If I slam into you you're gonna feel it believe me.

The real danger on our roads is and always has been careless or fat lazy drivers, many of whom seem to take it as a personal affront that there are people among us who choose not to be fat lazy drivers. The number of times I've nearly been run off the road so that some fat lazy driver can make it to a junction before me! And the number of times the same fat lazy drivers have sat with their windows up, staring straight ahead as the 6'4" Glaswegian cyclist whose just caught them tells them exactly what he'll do if they'd be man enough to step out of vehicle...god help you if you carve me up boy. I've even taken on police cars.

We should be getting our priorities right here. We need
A less cars on the roads
B More people cycling.
We're never gonna do this by imposing conditions on the cycling part of the equation. We should be much more rigorous in imposing sanctions on drivers who behave badly or drive dangerously. In many continental countries, cyclists and pedestrians have priority over cars, particularly in urban areas where cycling is greatly to the advantage of traffic flow and air quality. In this country, it's possible to drive at speed into a hubble of cyclists and kill them and yet be declared blameless by the local chief of police despite being found at the site to have been driving on 4 bald tyres.
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Postby Dugald » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:55 pm

"it's an exageration of risk and protection to suggest that anyone who rides without a helmet will die and anyone who does will live".

Cyclo, I'm not too sure what is meant by "exaggeration of risk". It can mean cycling is not so dangerous as to justify wearing a helmet. I happen to think it is. However, having survived riding a bike for 47 years without a helmet, I must certainly agree with you, that it is an exaggeration to suggest that anyone who rides without a helmet will die.

There may well be some truth in there being an exaggeration of protection in wearing a helmet. It may give an additional feeling of security which is not warranted, but I believe the additional security is well worth this possible exaggeration. A helmet will protect the head in many instances... and I make this statement based on wide personal and varied experiences.

"Most Pro's only wear helmets in competition."

I disagree with this. I have seen Tour de France rider Steve Bauer going for a coffee on his bicycle in the city where I live... wearing a helmet. No, Steve is not "most pros", but I have cycled in many parts of the world and seen many "pros", not racing, perhaps training, and they wore helmets.

While I'd guess I was among the first cyclists to wear a helmet in Scotland, I have no experience as to the attitude of Scottish clubs with regard to wearing helmets. When I raced in Scotland the only helmet I ever wore was the "hair net" type required for track racing. I had the occasion, as a spectator, to attend several Scottish road events about 1989, and I wore a helmet. There was no other cyclist present wearing a helmet, and from conversational comments I'd say the attitude of most club men was that they were not in favour of wearing helmets.

There is no Canadian cycling club to the best of my knowledge that allows riders to participate in any club-sponsored cycling events without a helmet. I have attended six bicycle rallies in North America and helmets were required for every type of cycling event.

At another level, let me say that I believe any adult who allows a child to ride a bicycle without a helmet is endangering the life of the child, and should be charged by the police. Oh yes, I know there are those who consider this wooly thinking for cotton wool kids, I don't. Such negligence, I believe, falls into the same category as allowing a child to ride in a car without a safety belt.

"If a car hits you, your helmet will not save you."

This is a rather profound generalisation Cyclo. There have been countless examples of cyclist being hit by vehicular traffic and beeing spared head injuries as a result of wearing helmets. Likewise, and for example, many cyclists have been spared head injuries by virtue of wearing a helmet when not knocked off their bikes by dogs.

While I would like to comment further about these " fat lazy drivers", you mention, I think for the time being I'll confine this reply to the 'helmet' aspect of this very interesting discussion.
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Postby Dugald » Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:08 am

Continuing with my comments on your last posting Cyclo, let me say I agree with you when you say that if cyclists jump the lights then they should suffer the same consequences as motorists. A cyclist on a bicycle is on a vehicle and should be treated as such. Oh yes, if a person gets hit by a someone riding a bicycle then the person, and probably the cyclist, is likely to get hurt.

I agree with you again when you say cyclists and pedestrians in urban areas should have priority over motorized vehicles. Here in Canada cyclists and pedestrians have for a long time been treated as second-class citizens, and as far as I recall, that's how it always was in Glasgow. Indeed, I'd guess it is even worse in Glasgow than say Toronto for example, where I have been led to believe things are improving. In Glasgow, probably in Scotland too, people riding a bicycle were frequently treated as people who rode a bike because they couldn't afford a car... especially if one spoke with a Glaswegian accent.

I'm not too sure about these "fat lazy drivers" you speak of. Oh drivers have run me off the road countless times, yes, and broken my bones too, but I don't ever recall coming face-to-face with the culprit at the wheel, not that it would have mattered too much anyway... when measured against a yardstick, I just don't measure up to your lofty altitude.

Yes, on second thoughts, I do recall coming face-to-face with a culprit at the wheel: while riding along the shore of Loch Riddon a car pushed us off this second-class shore road, and sped off. We went into the wee shop down the road at the Colintraive Ferry and lo and behold, there was the driver. He was a very young fellow, probably driving his father's car, and when he saw us, his face went as red as a beet root. I don't think he'll have forgotten what I said to him.

The unfortunate thing about the "fat lazy drivers" receiving any kind of punishment, be it physical of verbal, is that the cyclist will never win. Oh the cyclist may well thump the driver into oblivion, but whatever form of road-rage that is exercised, will not bring an end to the motorist's road-rage. What we then have is a driver in a lethal vehicle who hates cyclists. Some early morning when Sam is out training on his own on a quiet road, this grudge-bearing motorist sees a cyclist in front of him and to him, this is the person who thumped him into oblivion and, well, a sideswipe and Sam goes you know which way and the motorist drives on his merry way with "let that be a lesson" look on his face.

You and I Cyclo, have our priorities right: "We need (A), less cars on the roads, (B) More people cycling". It may just be possible to attain these two 'priorities', well in urban areas anyway. There are cities in the world pondering means of discouraging motorists from using city cores and encouraging the use of bicycles... Ottawa in Canada, New York in America, Hamburg in Germany, to mention but a few. Bicycle-riding really is flourishing in North America. In Glasgow, the only thing I have noticed about bicycle-riding, is that it is diminishing and becoming more dangerous. Sad to say, I think Glasgow people now look upon a bicycle as a toy. Hey, who knows, maybe the city's new velodrome will change attitudes.
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Postby barry » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:05 pm

hello everyone. I have been lurking on the forums for a while and thank you for such an interesting read in the thread -as always- anyway, I was wondering if any of you could give me some tips for a budding cyclist. I've been contempt plating getting a road bike for a bit now but don't have the slightest clue on such matters. I've only ever had a cheapy mountain bike in the past and want to move into something a bit more serious when it comes to cycling. My budget at the moment would be about £600 but I'm not sure on prices for bikes in the grand scheme of things so that might be too much for a beginner?
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hnston wheelers

Postby peter » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:17 pm

Me ntion previously of the Johnstone Wheelers reminds me of some of the old uns we climbed with. Many were in that club before the war and after. One bloke in particular was Bobby (stukky) Stirling. He was a member for years. After the war he went to Australia for a while and took his bike. Forty years or so later he went back for a visit and his old bike was hanging up in a shed where he left it. These guys were a tough breed. In later years he and his \old pals spent a lot of time at the Cloch in an old lookout post dating from wartime and used as a club hut.
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Postby Dugald » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:26 pm

"I've been contemplating getting a road bike for a bit now but don't have the slightest clue on such matters."

Barry, I'm not up to date on the price of bicycle equipment in Glasgow these days. My advice to you however, is not to buy another bicycle until you have determined for sure what kind of cycling you wish to do. It would be a good idea to get in touch with a local cycling club (have a chat with a real cyclist out on the road, and I'm sure he'll/she'll tell you who to contact). Generally in cycling clubs many riders have extra bikes and it is often the case some of them would be happy to sell you one. Ride your old bike with the club at first... ach, they'll laugh at you, but only in fun and anyway, it lets them know you're looking for advice. A new bicycle can be very expensive so it's a very good idea to know what it is you want before you start to spend a lot of money. From my own experience, Glasgow cyclist are as friendly and helpful as you'll find anywhere.

Glad to hear you found the thread interesting Barry. Good luck in your endeavours! Cheers, Dugald.
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Postby Dugald » Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:42 pm

"One bloke in particular was Bobby (stukky) Stirling. He was a member for years. After"

Interesting Peter. I knew some Johnstone Wheeler riders, but I don't know if they rode prewar. The only one who might have, was a Wattie Buchanan (he acted as a kind of coach to the deserter from the Scots Guards that I mentioned in a previous post). Bobby Stirling I don't know. I wonder what state his tyres were in after hanging in a shed for 40 years!

The houf at the Cloch I'm very familiar with. I drummed up there quite a few times in the 90's. It has been a popular "drum-up" spot for Glasgow cyclists for as long as I can remember. Last time I was there, I just missed meeting Isobel Campbell, Nightingale C.C., Glasgow's lady champion at almost every distance and long an icon in British cycling. She stopped there frequently for a cuppa. One had to be a bit of a celebrity in the world of cycling to obtain one's own key to enter the houf... alas, I was never given a key!
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Postby barry » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:21 pm

I actualy used to live in Johnstone until last year when I moved out to Glasgow. I've known about the Wheelers but didn't realise how much of a following they had. It's across from Miller Street Park yeah?
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Postby Blueboy » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:13 pm

barry wrote:I actualy used to live in Johnstone until last year when I moved out to Glasgow. I've known about the Wheelers but didn't realise how much of a following they had. It's across from Miller Street Park yeah?


Yeah that's where they meet. I used to ride over from Neilston and back on club nights. Great fun climbing the Glenniffer braes in the dead of winter with only a dynamo to light the way....

I only raced with them for a few years in the 80s but they were a good bunch.

£600 for a first road bike is quite a lot - especially if you decide it's not for you. I can't stress enough the importance of 'try before you buy'. Go to a good bike shop see what they've got. Dales, Evans (Glasgow) and The Edinburgh Bicycle Co-operative both do test rides.

Good makes are Specialized, Trek, Giant and the like. Good luck!
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Postby Osiris » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:38 pm

A good cycle route is from the city centre to Cathkin Braes 'n Back, done this several times and always found the climb up via Busby and Carmunnock is well worth the descent back into the city. Its a short run by some standards but one of the most traffic free 'n rewarding (in terms of the decent).

Cheers, Jason
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Postby onyirtodd » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:17 pm

Osiris wrote:A good cycle route is from the city centre to Cathkin Braes 'n Back, done this several times and always found the climb up via Busby and Carmunnock is well worth the descent back into the city. Its a short run by some standards but one of the most traffic free 'n rewarding (in terms of the decent).

Cheers, Jason


...............and there's every chance of a casual shag near the car park at Cathkin Braes :wink:
238 to 127. All in all a good afternoon's work
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Postby Dugald » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:28 pm

quote="Osiris"]A good cycle route is from the city centre to Cathkin Braes 'n Back, done this several times and always found the climb up via Busby and Carmunnock is well worth the descent back into the city. Its a short run by some standards but one of the most traffic free 'n rewarding (in terms of the decent). Cheers, Jason[/quote]

I know the route you are talking about very well Osiris. It was part of a circuit we use to do from Govan: via Crookston, the Firineze Laundry in Barrhead, up the Bonny Wee Well to Lugton and into Stewarton; then back to Glasgow on the old Stewarton Rd. and over the Braes to Busby and back to Govan through Nitshill. This Osiris, is the stuff that has contributed so much to Glasgow's cycling heritage being what it is; this is the stuff that led me to say, "The geographic location of Glasgow, sitting astride a river and surrounded by beautiful countryside and well-served by suitable roads and paths, proved ideal for the development of an enthusiastic cycling fraternity". Cheers, Dugald.
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Postby Blueboy » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:36 pm

Osiris wrote:A good cycle route is from the city centre to Cathkin Braes 'n Back, done this several times and always found the climb up via Busby and Carmunnock is well worth the descent back into the city. Its a short run by some standards but one of the most traffic free 'n rewarding (in terms of the decent).

Cheers, Jason


I believe the Drummond Trophy, a famous annual race organised by Glenmarnock Wheelers, used to take place up and around the Cathkin braes years ago. It's held South of Strathaven now.

I used to use this route as part of my training run but went up Aitkenhead road, through Castlemilk and Carmunock. It's a steady climb all the way but at least it has lots of nice smooth road surfaces.

Nice view of the City from the top too!
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Postby Cyclo2000 » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:01 am

Barry,

As a regular contributer to the Cycling Plus forums I'm about as qualified to give you some advice as anyone else.

Edinburgh Bicycle do a smashing bike called the Revolution which costs about £400. It has all the modern gear on and allows the fitting of mudguards - a boon in the winter. I can assure you that you won't find a better buy.
One of the most popular bike with club riders nowadays is the Specialized Allez. Prices start at £500 and continue up. Spesh also produce the Tricross, which is a multiuse road bike, designed to be used as a Cyclo Crosser and Tourer and therefore suitable for lite off road use. Costs £700 but these are in short supply.
Giant have the OCR range at under £500 and Trek have the 1000 which got best buy in the C+ reviews.
Realisticly, you're gonna have to spring about £500 for the bike and the gear you need, a lot of these bikes come sans pedals as the assumption is you'll want to use your own shoes and cleats. If you ain't got shoes, you'll need to budget for them too. A lot of people like a helmet and I'd always advise shorts, proper cycling shorts. Again, Edinburgh Bicycle do some very reasonably priced own brand gear. Keep an eye out at your local Aldi and Lidls too but be aware that their stuff goes very quickly so get there at 9 on the day the cycling kit goes on sale.
Finally, a few words on Halfords....DON'T! The bikes are not good value for money compared with any of the above, even if they are a bit cheaper and the service in terms of worthwhile advice is simply shocking. They do have a decent range of cheap clothing however and it's worth noting that at the end of this month they will be releasing the new Chris Boardman approved range of bikes which have already had favouable reviews in the Cycling press. they're gonna be a bit dearer, though. Halfords are the major conractor for the Bike To Work scheme but this doesn't mean that you are restricted to what you see in store. PlanetX bikes are available to order through any branch of Halfords (although you'll probably have to insist) and typically bike to work scheme bikes cost about half of retail over the year. IE a £1000 bike will end up costing you £500. See here...
http://www.halfordsb2b.com/bikes4work-schemes.asp
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