Glasgow's Cycling Heritage

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Postby Dugald » Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:41 am

I never did any mountain bike riding Osiris. The mountain bike made its appearance on the scene long after my bones were too brittle to handle the hammering mountain-biking imposes on them. I wish I had. When I see these young fellows scooting down "1 in 4" hills (and scooting up them!), I'm filled with envy. It must be a truly exciting sport. The town where I live is full of them and they have lots of fun. Funny thing is that most of the guys, but not all of them, in this sport in my town are professional people: lawyers, engineers, doctors, teachers. The Glasgow clubs in my day were composed almost entirely of working-class types: carpenters, plumbers, electricians, bus drivers. Maybe the very high cost of today's equipment has something to do with explaining this difference.
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Postby Dexter St. Clair » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:03 pm

I've had two Scots. One an absolutely superb model from circa 1964 which was stolen in 1979. Igot £500 from the insurance after getting a valuation from Rattray's in Alexandra Parade. I spent it on something else and a year later bought another Scot 331N.

When i get hold of a camera I'll take a hot of it.
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Postby Cyclo2000 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:09 am

Great stuff Dexter. If you get a pic of it, post it on the Scot website, so Bob can add it to the register. These machines are becoming rarer, and although they'll probably always have a greater sentimental than monetary value the Scot is a real piece of cycling history that requires preservation.
http://www.flying-scot.co.uk/
My Scot (680E) here -
http://www.flying-scot.co.uk/rattray/scot_frames/pages/frame_680e.html
If yours is 331N that would make it a mid 60's frame - possibly 66 or 67 (N being the year and 331 being the production number)
309N is on the register, here
http://www.flying-scot.co.uk/rattray/scot_frames/pages/frame_309n.html

On the subject of 531 tubing - of course there was developement of this tubeset over the years with various specialised versions coming out, including the very thin walled 531c (for "competition") which had the tendency to wear out a bit quicker than standard, 531 double butted tubesets. Even so, it's very unusual for steel to fail catastrophicaly like this - that's a characteristic more usually attributed to aluminium - but more so in the old days when Alu welding was not as advanced in technique as it now is. Similar catastrophic failure was common back in the day with titanium frames as the Ti tubesets had to be joined in a vacum. The slightest mistake tended to leave an insuperable weakness which would fail suddenly and often dangerously. Steel usually bends or manifests the weakness before failing in this manner. Experiments in developing new variations of 531 produced later steel tubesets, such as the 725, ridden to victory in the TdF by Bernard Hinault in the 80's. Of course 531 has been ridden to victory in the TdF more than any other frame material.

I can still remember being in the Murray Street shop with my dad and being shown a Scot in titanium. The Frame was white around the lug areas but clear enameled over the ti tubing along the top, seat and downtubes. Very striking - but the frame was a display only model IFRC, and I've never seen an example on the road.

My friend and I had two of the earliest Mountain Bikes in Glasgow. We had to import them ourselves, there was no one in the UK selling them. For our first trip out we got the maps out and choose Ben Ledi as the map had in brackets after Ben Ledi "(the gentle slope)". We went up there on a Sunday afternoon in September. It was blowing a gale, freezin' cold and like cycling up the side of a house. Gentle slope my arse! After shouldering the bikes we walked to the summit and from there proceded downhill at some speed. It was a nightmare descent. By the time we got to the bottom we were both really quite badly hurt and travelling at such speed that we failed to stop. We hurtled through a gate, became airborn after skiting off the camber in the road and ended up in the loch. Only later did we find out that the yanks only used them on tracks. Oops!
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Postby Dugald » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:37 am

Dexter St. Clair wrote:I've had two Scots. One an absolutely superb model from circa 1964 which was stolen in 1979. Igot £500 from the insurance after getting a valuation from Rattray's in Alexandra Parade. I spent it on something else and a year later bought another Scot 331N.


Sounds like you had the real kind of Scot stolen Dexter. Well you got a good payment from the insurance company anyway. The closest I came to getting a Scot occurred in 1990 at the "Barras". a fellow there was selling one for £200. It wasn't in great shape, but it could have been put into great shape quite easily. The only cash I had was £100, which I offered to the fellow along with my own, quite-good Bianci, but he wouldn't budge. Oh well....
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Postby Blueboy » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:40 am

Although not specific to Glasgow, the West of Scotland section of the National Clarion Cycling club had many members from Glasgow.

My Great Grandfather was a member in the 1920s-30s despite succumbing to serious wounds in the Great War. Some years ago my Gran gave me her father's Clarion Cycling Club badge which I treasure. I'll post a pic for anyone who's interested.

Unfortunately there's not a great deal of information on the West of Scotland section on the web:

http://www.clarioncc.org/

Anyone got any memories or have any relatives who were members?
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Postby Dugald » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:41 am

I thoroughly enjoyed looking at your pictures Cyclo... beautiful stuff! What magnificent lug work! Your bike appears to have been in pristine condition, (didn't you ever use it...smile!). All the equipment on it looks like the very best, although of course, it is very much dated. Yes, there won't be too many of the genuine Scots around anymore. I've sold four bikes in the last two years, but if I'd had a Scot like yours, it would still have been hanging in my living room! They are, as you so aptly put it, a real piece of cycling history.

I must say you're a real source of knowledge on the different "tubesets". You know there use to be a Glasgow fellow raced on an aluminium frame back in the 40's! There was only one of these bikes in all of Scotland, and I don't know what it was or where it came from. This was back in the days when apparently, aluminium couldn't be brazed or welded, so how this machine was built I don't know. Interesting stuff about "531" and Hinault.

A Scot in titanium is something I've never seen.

I also enjoyed your wee story about your ride up the gentle-sloped Ben Ledi. As I mentioned before, I never did manage to get into Mountain biking, but I really would have loved to have had a go at it, it sounds real exciting. Oh, to be skiting off the camber in the road and ending up in a loch!
Cheers, dugald.
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Postby Cyclo2000 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:48 pm

There really is nothing new under the sun Dugald, and aluminium frame sets have been around a long long time. You're correct in stating that they couldnae braze it. Up until the late 80's they were still producing screwed'n'glued framesets. Companies such as Vitus and Allan (who still produce cyclocrossers in some quantities) made "Duraluminium" framed bicycles by threading the ends, casting massive lugs, coating the whole with glue and screwing them all together. Pics here
http://www.seankelly.com/
of Sean kelly's actual Kas Vitus 979. When I used to race back in the mid 80s, this was considered the knees of the bee. I never could afford one, but a geezer in the Club had one. I remember him riding along, screwing the top tube back in...Kelly was a hugely strong rider who must have been able to bend this whippy alu frame almost double!
On a side note....most modern roadbikes are fitted with the "new" dual pivot breaks and most bike shop owners will tell you that these are a huge leap forward and a real innovation. Actually, GB patented the idea in 1969 and sold the product for a while branded as Synchro. At the time, it didn't catch on. Shimano's latest product is a hub gear! They're making a big deal of it having 8 gears. Strumney Archer produced a 10 speed one in 1932, but shhh...don't tell anyone.

Kind of you to praise the old Scot. The frame is actually quite worn, but that is the original 1950s paint so that's how she'll stay. Shamefully, there's very little of her original equipment left. She now wears a mixture of original and other early parts.
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Postby Mori » Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:33 am

I see your post on the Flying Scot Cyclo they have actualy just released a movie named the The Flying Scotsman.

THE FLYING SCOTSMAN OPENS IN NEW ZEALAND

The Flying Scotsman opens in New Zealand today, Thursday 26 April 2007. This is the first official release of the film, after opening the Edinburgh International Film Festival 2006, and showing on limited release in Los Angeles. Receiving five nominations at this year’s BAFTA Scotland Awards, The Flying Scotsman is a feature film based on the remarkable true story of Scottish cyclist Graeme Obree.

To find out more about The Flying Scotsman, please visit http://www.imdb.com.
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Postby Dugald » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:09 am

Cyclo, now there's a new one on me: "screwed'n'glued framesets". Never heard of this one before, it's good. It tells the story well too, and would explain how that 40's racing bike I saw was held together. I had a look at your pictures, very good. "Vitus and Allan" they're new on me too; never heard of them before. But I do recall the "Kas", maybe back in the 80's they just shortened the name to "Kas".

I recall Kelly of course. Certainly a very strong rider; strange that he never did win a Tour despite he great performances in the other classics. After the year Pantani won the King o' the Mountains crown then got exposed for drugs, I gave up watching any more continental bike racing, and I've never set eyes on one since.

I'm not too sure what "dual pivot breaks" are. My last bike (which I sold last year) had what i thought were the latest kind of brakes, well they cost a real bundle anyway! They were the kind which function as 'stopping' brakes in the normal way, but operate the gears by a lateral movement. "GB" is what i used on my last Govan bike; in fact everybody used "GB" brakes back then ... with towering loops of cables! The "Sturmy Archer" I knew only had three gears (with only one chain ring of course) and was a lovely piece of machinery! A 10-speed in 1932, wow!

Cheers, dugald.
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Postby Dugald » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:18 am

I haven't seen this film yet Mori, but i read his biography. Graham was/is a phenomenal cyclist. His performances were unbelievable. Any man who can ride himself to the stage of drawing blood from his lungs is a Champion of an order all to itself! I'd like to see the film. I found his story sad in many ways, and wonder if he ever took drugs in his races... I hope not. I think he was treated terribly by the professional cycling world... and this contributed a great deal to my giving up watching all the international events. I have a big picture of him in my basement and garage. Truly Scotland's most outstanding racing cyclist.
Last edited by Dugald on Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Blueboy » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:25 pm

Here's Graeme in action last weekend on the Eglinton Park course.

Image

That's a 67x14 fixed he's riding. 8O 8O
He won the event with 10 miles in 20 minutes 47 seconds.
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Postby Dugald » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:47 pm

Geezus, but does the sight of that picture not set your blood jumping. Bravo Graham, you look exactly that which I always thought you were , and hoped ... a champion! Such unparalled DEDICATION, always makes me feel awfully good about my accent.
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Postby allyharp » Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:53 am

Blueboy wrote:That's a 67x14 fixed he's riding.

How the Jesus do you even start pedalling with that?!
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Postby Dugald » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:47 pm

Talking about Graham O'Bree, and thinking about the unsportsmanlike treatment he got from the top cycling pros in the world, reminded me of my disenchantment with professional cycling, and professional sport in general.

I've been thrilled by the performance of quite a number of great sporting figures in many sporting events in my life. I guess one of the last times was watching the magnificent performance of one, Marco Pantani, in the 1998 Tour de France, as he danced his way up through the soaring mountains in his effort to claim the prestigious title "King of the Mountains". Wow, thought I, what a great cyclist this Pantani is. Yes, 'wow' indeed, but I was just one of the thousands of enthusiastic cyclists who celebrated his brilliant performance, only to find out later, that the Italian was a fake! He had cheated us... he had taken performance-enhancing drugs!

The performance of Floyd Landis in last year's Tour de France was not something about which I cheered. Outstanding and all, as his performance was claimed to be, I stood back from the celebrations; I learned my lesson from the Marco Pantani affair. Landis it is alleged, tested positive for having used a performance-enhancing drug in the Tour, and was fired by his cycling team and may well still be stripped of his Tour de France winner's title. He's a cheat, and I don't like cheats in sport. Cheats give a sport a bad name, and I especially don't like the sport of cycling having a bad name.

I was a cyclist for most of my life and took part in many races. I was never a champion, and could count on one hand the number of bicycle-racing events in which I participated with any measure of success, but I never took drugs, and to me it was always a clean sport, a sport in which I felt good about being a part. I gave up watching all international sporting events, including bicycle-racing, after the 1998 Tour because of the Pantani exposé, and I have never watched one since... it's phoney!

The great French "5-Tour-winner", Anquetil, asked the rhetorical question sometime after his retirement in the 1950's, "Do you think we ride for three weeks over some of the steepest toughest roads in Europe drinking soda-pop?". For me, the answer to his question was innocently accepted, and remained so, until 1998 when Pantani's exposure told the whole story. There is now another chapter to this drug story... the one provided by Floyd Landis and his testosterone, artificial and otherwise.

The 'drug story' should have sunk in earlier in 1967 when the 'great' English rider, Tommy Simpson, climbed himself to death in the Tour under the influence of amphetamines. Tommy Simpson was a revered British rider with a string of great cycling accolades to his name. He was looked up to in the world of British cycling. Indeed, he is still looked upon as a great racing cyclist and there is even a prestigious race held to this day in his native Yorkshire which bears his name... yet the man was a cheat!

I was in Glasgow in 1998 at the time of the Pantani exposure and I heard Robert Miller, es Glasgow Wheeler, a great Glaswegian cyclist, being interviewed on the radio. Miller, himself a winner of the Tour de France "King of the Mountain" title, the same title Simpson killed himself trying to acquire, and the one Pantani cheated in his effort to acquire, refused, in a very round about way, to deny ever having taken drugs while riding in the Tour. This 'refusal' left no doubt in my mind that he too, had cheated.

What about Scotland's other great figures in the world of cycling?. What of Scotland's Graham O'bree for example, a man whose cycling exploits excite me more than any other world cyclist, did he establish his unbelievable records under the influence of drugs? Did O'Bree become the pursuit Champion of all the World by cheating? I don't know, I have no proof that he used drugs to cheat in races. In his autobiography he admits to having tried drugs outside the world of bicycle racing, but there is no such admission regarding bicycle racing, but I am not at all sure any more. I do hope he hasn't ever cheated.

Govan's Ian Steele, of Warsaw/Prague-International-Road-Race fame, is one Glaswegian cyclist I feel confident about believing never cheated under the influence of drugs. I think the other famous Scottish cyclists, before the Robert Miller era, were clean performers. But let us not forget Scotland's other current drug cheat, David Miller (no relation to Robert), who was barred from racing for a period as punishment for having raced under the influence of drugs.

Bicycle racing of course, isn't the only sport in which performance-enhancing drugs are used. We in Canada had to suffer for example, the great embarrassment brought upon us by Ben Johnson in the Korean Olympics of 1990. The Americans too, have their more recent embarrassment, through the drug exploits of the once World's 100-metre record holder, Justin Gatlin. It seems cheating is endemic in the world of international sport.

Out of the top five riders in last year's Tour, Lance Armstrong is the only one who would have been allowed to compete in this year's Tour, the other four were are all under suspension regarding the use of drugs in last year's Tour of Spain (charges it seems, have been dropped on a technicality). Should we not wonder about Lance Armstrong? Did he take drugs in his winning of the Tour an incredible seven times? Does this suggest Armstrong got out before his drugs became identifiable? Floyd Landis, and his vehement denial of having taken drugs to win the Tour (they all deny ever having taken performance-enhancing drugs) won't clear his name. Should we listen to those who tell us that there are people constantly working to develop performance-enhancing drugs which cannot be tested? The sport is forever tarnished, and Landis has contributed greatly to this sad state of cycling affairs.

Last summer, International Cyclists' Union boss, Pat McQuaid, said: "I do have an agenda - my agenda is a clean sport and to retain the credibility of the sport ". I wish him luck!
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Postby Cyclo2000 » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:53 am

Hmmm....

There's a long history of drug taking in cycling, it's true. The Pelissier brothers famously talked about it..."Cocaine for the gums, heroine for the eyes..." etc. back in the early days of the Tour. Tom Simpson admitted there was drug taking in the Pro peleton on more than one occassion during press interviews (although he always denied taking anything himself). The TdF authorities (Felix Levitan - lets not mince words) were happy to turn a blind eye to it despite several near misses in the late fifties. It was really Tommy Simpson's death in 1967 that gave the Tour Doctor, Dr Dumas, the ammunition he needed to force controls on the riders. Dumas is the man you can see administering mouth to mouth in the famous picture of poor Tom expiring on the rocks of Ventoux.
On a side note, Simpson's mechanic that year was Harry Hall. Hall stated shortly before he died that Simpson's last words were not "Put be back on my bloody bike" as has been reported but in fact the more desperate and poignant "On! On! On!"
On the question of his death from amphetemine use, it's more correct to state that he died from heat stroke. He'd been drinking a mixture of brandy and coke on the lower slopes and was dangerously dehydrated at the time of his collapse.
Your Anquetil quote is often attributed to Coppi - "If you think we can win races on champagne and boiled eggs you're only fooling yourself"

The Landis case is still open - we have to reserve judgement on it. The reasons for his massive time gains had more to do with disorganisation in the peleton than anything else - a similar situation to that most famous of stages, Brive-Agen and the victory of Hugo Koblet, "The Pedaller of Charm" more info available if you want it.

The Spanish scandal is known officially as "Operation Puerto" and involves blood doping. Several top cyclists were implemented by association and immediately withdrawn from racing by their teams. At the same time, several top class tennis players were implemented, they're still on the circuit. Over 30 top class household name European footballers are named in the files, all are still playing. Many, many track and field athletes from Spain and around the world are implemented, all still appear at the top level.
My point is that although doping has always been a factor in cycle racing, the UCI are trying to deal with it in the same manner in which other sporting authorities are trying to ignore it. Remove the plank from your own eye, etc.

Since 1998 and the Festina scandal, no sport has been morely closely watched for doping than cycling. Unfortunately, the almost insane demands of the sport in the modern era place strains on the riders which are going to be met by some with Dope.

Further note on the use of EPO.
EPO is an interesting drug when compared with other drugs which have been used traditionaly in sport. Amphetemines, cocaine and caffeine suppositories (the latter still used and tolerated by the UCI) are the most easily understood - they increase endurance by keeping you awake or dulling pain. Thus the rider using these products can go further, faster as he feels the pain less or at least is better able to endure it. EPO is a drug which may enable an otherwise "ordinary" rider to become extraordinary because of the way it works on the body. Therefore someone who has the propensity to best assimilate EPO can perform better than a rider who is naturally gifted. This is the real evil of EPO.

Note on Robert Millar
There is a biography of Robert Millar out pretty soon. The rumours about his apparent transvestism were started by Alain Pieper back in the days when they shared rooms. Pieper used to joke about the two suitcases Millar took with him, saying that one was full of women's underwear.

Finally
The problem for Obree isnae starting that big gear, it's stopping it. He rides fixed wheel, meaning that if the wheel goes round, so do the pedals. That gear developes 405" of forward movement with each turn of the pedals. OUCH!
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