Alexander Thomson

[MarkT]

Hiya,

I'm doing some postgrad work on the conservation, or not, of Alexander Thomson's buildings, especially St Vincent Street Church and Caledonia Road Church. If anyone's got anything to say about the situation concerning these buildings (of course you have!), please feel free to let me know! And there's a wee poll too...

Best wishes, Mark

[escotregen]

Mark I see you are a recent new joiner (and very welcome you are ). I just wanted to make sure you are aware of the other threads where this topic has been gone into in detail. They inlcude:

http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=714&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=greek+tragedy


http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1550&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=greek+tragedy

http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2816&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=greek+tragedy

(I hope my brilliant IT skills are up to posting the above correctly)

[Socceroo]

I'm doing some postgrad work on the conservation, or not, of Alexander Thomson's buildings, especially St Vincent Street Church and Caledonia Road Church.....

Hi Mark, given that you did not put Greek between Alexander and Thomson leads me to believe you are a friend of Crusty's?

At the time of posting this your Poll was sitting at 50 - 50 with regards to Conserve Vs Restore.

I voted for Conserve. I could only imagine what horrors we could end up with if the restoration of Caledonia Road Church was attempted.

However, i understand that it is claimed that an adequate amount of conservation has taken place at Caledonia Road to stabilise it etc.

This worries me as the stonework does not look in too good shape. I think that it would be a good idea to put a roof on Caledonia Road Church again to give it back its true profile / silhouette. Indent and repair the stonework. And put a Glass Box structure inside it as Museum to the life and work Alexander Thomson.

Oh, and how about putting some real lights on it rather than tickling it with the present poorly positioned lighting scheme.

I tend to think that any other major European city as Glasgow like's to think of itself as, would have done this or something like it a long time ago.

[Socceroo]

Come on guys just giving this wee thread a nudge surely its worth giving your views on or a least giving a vote on

[govanboay]

the roofing of Caledonia Rd church and making it a museum to the great man is a brilliant idea! It is by far his best church (obviously I never got to see QP church in the flesh) and it really needs something other than a few poxy lights.

As long as they don't build flats in/around it!! God forbid!!

[JoeyCape]

But Glasgow doesn't have enough luxury flats Govanboay!!!!!!

[crusty_bint]

Hmmmm... now there's the dilemma! How to agree what wholesale method should be used in the upkeep and cosolodation of our built heritage?

In the case of Caledonia Road church I would without hesitation go for restoration. The only way to give any form of guarantee (as if there is such a thing) on a building's survival is it's continued use/habitation and maintenance. As it stands, Caledonia rd stands on very precarious foundations. Buildings are simply not designed to function in that situation. I would, however, not be entirely un-opposed to it's restoration and conversion to residential occupancy on the proviso that the highest quality of architecture, design, use of materials, installation of services, treatment of windows and everything else that would accompany any such undertaking, be in full accordance wth best practice, and to a certain exetent, minimal intervention principles.

In the case of Holmwood House I would, again, without hesitation opt for conservation. I have t admit to being not entirely convinced by Historic Scotland's, sometimes over-zealous stand point on this. Regardless of that, when you are presented with such a uniquely preserved specimen such as Holmwood the obvious choice is conservation. The problem with this however is the huge cost involved. I can't wait till it's finished tho, hope I live another century!

In order to bring these costs down, as mentioned previously in severeal topics in the forums, there has to be a change in the VAT law where currently you pay VAT on the maintence of your property yet you do not for new build. This anomoly has to be addressed as it only serves to penalise you for maintaining you historic building and encourage the demolition and replacing of them with whatever the developer can get away with.

An expansion of craft skills involved in such projects is also a key factor. The only way to reduce the relative cost is to have a larger skillsbase to choose from on a competitive market. As it stands it's wee (albeit sometimes struggling) monopolies charging big rates. Not to dengrate these skilled craftsmen in any way, but it's like paying for a plumber on xmas day every day!

The stte of affairs with the St Vincent St church is an absolute disgrace, as I have explained in vitriolic diatribe a few times! Again it finds itself on the WMF's endangered list yet again - up there with frikkin Angkor Wat! Anyway, blah blah blah, the usual, disgrace, outrage, scandal, bastards!

Crusty

P.S. Don't think i know Mark from Adam, but good for him for not limiting the man! The other Alexander Thomson is long since dead, no-one gives a fuck about him anymore: drop the 'Greek' bit!

[Socceroo]

The only way that the "Greek" Thomson Church on Caledonia Road could at the present time be restored, is if it could be made attractive to developers i.e. Luxury Flats. If there was Council will or funding to do something with the building it would have happened by now.

Given the present climate where Luxury Flats have saturated the market place in Glasgow, development of the Caledonia Church is unlikely.

Whether we are fans of Luxury Flats or not, we should be concerned that the market for such developments which redevelop the city in a seemingly equal dose of progression and regression is saturated in Glasgow at present, to an equilibrium unattractive to investors.

Bottom line is developers are pulling out of flat building / refurbishment in Glasgow so fast that you would think that there is a Cholera epidemic.......this is a fact....comments...?

Apologies for using "Greek" but that is what he is known by. Even Gavin Stamp utilises this nickname.

[escotregen]

Socceroo I have been picking up some consistent anecdotal comment in various contexts (like a ScotEnt conference last week, and of course Babbity Bowers ). These are from people in the business and to the effect that the residential development wave in Glasgow is already being sustained on a fair degree of spin and huffing 'n puffing.

Anecdotes indicate that there is no 'new' money coming in at the bottom of the market, which as you will know is what sustains the upward thrust for purchase in the higher price levels in regional residential markets. What looks like an impending Christmas let-down for the retail sector may be another harbinger of a lack of consumer cash?

On your point about the need to make the likes of 'Greek' Thompson (ya boo shucks Crusty ) buildings attractive for flat developers if they are to survive. I'd like to speculate that there's been a strong dynamic underway in Glasgow for almost a couple of decades. This dynamic meant that flat developments were very, very, attractive to the local authority (lucrative for the local authority in council tax, the local authurity need not contribute any funding and 'things happen fast'). Consequently, the local authority tended to look more favourably on flat developers, whether new build or conversions.

Prior to all that, there was a more fluid and opportunistic market in innovative and diverse change-of-use projects for older buildings such as churches. The likes of Housing Asociations were to the fore in this. However, it did require the local authority to be flexible and innovative in it's thinking (often a problem as we all know)... and to even sometimes help with some tranfer of assets or CPO action. Negotiations could be lengthy and complex, especially when the Housing Asociations tended to do things like actually consult with those pesky communities affected by the developments.

I'm not suggesting that private developers found the local authority exactly 'easy' to deal with. But for the local authority the flat developers will have been a relatively far more attractive proposition. Consequently, alternative contenders found that they were simply no longer as welcome and that there was a lessening of goodwill and practical support from the local authority. (certainly the recent council shennanigins leading up to the creation of the GHA demonstrated a complete disregard for the existing vibrant Housing Association movement in Glasgow, ans that's why we now have a mess on the stock transfer).

What may be interesting is that if we are now on the verge of a reidential market recession in Glasgow, does this mean that the local authority might return once again to partnerhip and supportive activities with alternative developers and uses of old building such as Greek Thompson?

[Socceroo]

..........What may be interesting is that if we are now on the verge of a reidential market recession in Glasgow, does this mean that the local authority might return once again to partnerhip and supportive activities with alternative developers and uses of old building such as Greek Thompson?

You would hope that given that there is a flattening out of the market and indeed possible residential market recession, that the Local Authorities would get involved in partnering and supportive strategies to encourage the development of specific key sites in Glasgow such as the Caledonia Road Church.

However, given that the Council has enjoyed a relatively easy ride over the last ten to fifteen years, taking credit for a lot of the city regeneration whilst it could be argued doing very little, i would wonder if they are equipped to offer any sort of dynamic approach?

The Council has stood back in years gone by as brownfield sites owned by developers have lay undeveloped due to market forces.

With regards to Caledonia Road Church, i recall that it was much publicised as a cornerstone site of the Crown Street Regenration Project which has been ongoing for the last fifteen years.

Why therefore, other than some essential repairs has it not been further conserved or restored?