Hitler's deputy crashed in Scotland

[Field Marshall Shug]

I have an original pressing of the book. It is acceptable for people to take such tomes at face value and will admit I have done so! There are other examples; some suggest 'Bravo Two Zero' to be mince and I have a book about the SAS in Afghanistan in the 90s which is apparently drivel. A fellow also wrote a book about N. Ireland whic claimed he was in a British death-squad and he was actually a mechanic.

It's always with regards military issues, isn't it? If you have any advice on decent Hess books, let me know. I was brught up on WWII and would like to investigate further.

[Dugald]

[quote="Graham.
The fact that Hess allegedly refused to see his wife and only allowed a visit from his son late in his life only adds further credence to the suposition that the prisoner in Spandau was not the real Hess.

The suggestion that the "Hess" who died in Spandau was someone other than the real Rudolph Hess, is very difficult to swallow, and it is something to which I would not attach any credence at all. This fellow in Spandau called Hess spent exactly 20 years in the company of von Schirach and Speer, and these two arch Nazis would have known as much about Hess as his wife did. Okay, so what they would have known would not have been the same personal facts about the man as his wife knew, but they would have been no less meaningful and significant with regard to identifying a phoney. Schirach and Speer, had no reason to keep any secrets about Hess.

[quote="Graham.
David McLean, who if you recall, contacted the media almost immediately upon "capturing" Hess.

I wonder how McLean would have been able to contact the media "almost immediately". It would have been very unlikely that there would have been a phone in McLean's house, and it would have taken some time to reach a phone, and it is also unlikely McLean would have left his mother alone with a captured German pilot.
I wonder too if the term "media" refers to the Sunday Mail reporter who was credited with the "scoop". The rumour at the time was that the reporter did some sleuthing and dug up the story all by himself, and all outside the law.

I'd like to have access to the Mitchell and have a read at the very first published media information in Glasgow about the Hess affair at Eaglesham. Many of the recent misgivings about this would be easily cleared up... not likely to have been time to fudge a story between when the incident happened and when the news was first published.

[Apollo]

What Dugald said, plus a consideration that the events and people we are discussing were living in wartime Britain/Scotland of 1940, not the media and celebrity hungry world of 2007. I don't believe David McLean would have been paid anything other than a few coppers, if anything, for his story. maybe even a few pounds for the filmed interview. A farmer on the moors of Scotland in 1940 probably wouldn't even have known he was dues a fee, let alone have felt it was his place to ask for one.

That was a very different world from the strange one we live in today - consider the recent Iranian hostages and the money they happily accepted on their return "I have to think of my child" I think I heard from one young lady. Maybe not joining the army would have been a better plan.

On that basis, I'm ready to spend a week in Iran!

Assuming you're correct about the source of some information I may be referring to (and I'm not referring to any single source, DO however favour those that debunk silly stories, and have given the source of quotes used), exactly what is your point regarding the presence of any particular book on a site "whose main stock-in-trade appears to be cds, records and pop memorabilia"? Amazon probably sells the same book, and even less relevant material, but I fail to see how that influences the content of any book it may sell. Unless, you want to make a particularly weak case for dismissing it by association

[Graham]

I wonder how McLean would have been able to contact the media "almost immediately". It would have been very unlikely that there would have been a phone in McLean's house, and it would have taken some time to reach a phone, and it is also unlikely McLean would have left his mother alone with a captured German pilot.

That is a valid point,a farm labourer probably wouldn't have had a phone in his cottage at that time but without either asking the Bairds or doing some digging in old phone books I have no way of knowing whether there was a phone at Floors Farm itself back then.

The assumption is also that McLean and his mother were alone with Hess - remember this is a working farm with other people living on it not just the McLeans and I'm quite sure everyone else would have come out to see what all the fuss was about!

Even if there wasn't a phone at the farm I would imagine that there would have been one at Eaglesham House which is just across the road from the farm and was at the time being used as an army barracks.

With regard to the first press reports of the incident, even supposing the story about McLean phoning a press contact are untrue (you have to ask yourself why a farm labourer would be acquanted with a journalist anyway - they hardly move in the same circles) it is feasible that whoever was in charge of operations at the time would have ensured that the story came across as showing a plucky working man capturing a high ranking Nazi, all such press coverage was good for moral. The notion aired in a previous post that the powers that be would never allow an untruth to be published during wartime is patently absurd. Such things have gone on throughout history and still do today, the case of Jessica Lynch the wee American lassie in Iraq being a prime example.

[Graham]

Assuming you're correct about the source of some information I may be referring to (and I'm not referring to any single source, DO however favour those that debunk silly stories, and have given the source of quotes used), exactly what is your point regarding the presence of any particular book on a site "whose main stock-in-trade appears to be cds, records and pop memorabilia"? Amazon probably sells the same book, and even less relevant material, but I fail to see how that influences the content of any book it may sell. Unless, you want to make a particularly weak case for dismissing it by association

I based my assumption on the fact that you had cut and pasted your entire arguement from the website I mentioned and yes, the main stock-in-trade of the site is cds and pop memorabilia. The book itself appears to be one of those "myths of the 20th century" ones that end up in the bargain bins in Bookworld and similar.

You rubbish Hugh Thomas' book in a previous post but have you yourself actually read it, or are you merely quoting once again from another source? You also made the point previously that Thomas et al who have written books on the subject could not be relied upon because they were out to "make a buck" from the story, yet you yourself appear to basing your assertations on a retailer's promotional blurb for a book and one that looks (if you have actually read the book please correct me if I am wrong) as if it is based on second or third hand information , which hardly seems to be a more credible source than that of someone who was personally involved.

I notice you also say " A farmer on the moors of Scotland in 1940 probably wouldn't even have known he was dues a fee" by the sounds of that you seem to think that Floors Farm is out in the middle of nowhere, cut off from civilisation when in fact it is only 3 miles outside the Glasgow city limits not up on the moors. The only time Floors Farm was ever "on the moors" was during the making of a docudrama about Hess' landing when the production company were refused access to original location and so improvised by filming out beyond Eaglesham instead.

[Dugald]

"Even if there wasn't a phone at the farm I would imagine that there would have been one at Eaglesham House which is just across the road from the farm and was at the time being used as an army barracks."

Graham, what you say here isn't necessarily so. In 1941 telephones in Scotland were very few and very far between. Even an army "barracks" (although I'd hesitate to call anything around Eaglesham a "barracks") would not necessarily have a phone. I don't know what kind of a house Eaglesham House was back then so I can't comment specifically about this "house"
.
"The assumption is also that McLean and his mother were alone with Hess"

Yes this is an assumption I've always made. Why? I'm not sure. I don't recall that McLean featured to any great extent in the first news of the Hess event. I didn't even become aware of the name until within the last few years! Hess' captor was always just referred to simply as a "ploughman". I don't know whether there were other people living at the farm or not. All the "action" at Eaglesham took place on a Saturday night and a Sunday morning, not times one would expect to find many farm people around the farm.

"...it is feasible that whoever was in charge of operations at the time would have ensured that the story came across as showing a plucky working man capturing a high ranking Nazi, all such press coverage was good for moral."

Yes, it's feasible, but I'd venture a guess that no one knew who was in charge! One must try and imagine the impact this event had during the war. It was just unbelievable, and by this I mean no one believed Hess had actually flown to Scotland on his own, and was actually in Glasgow! It was stunning! During the initial 24 hours there would have been little or no time to organize any control over how any story was to "come across". This is why in my last post I emphasized that the reporter who 'scooped' the story did it outside the law...it was unofficial, with reference being made only to unofficial sources. For what it's worth, "plucky" wasn't a word used much around Glasgow and I can't imagine a hard-nosed Sunday Mail reporter using it.

By the way Graham, I noticed an absence of any comment in your post about the years Hess spent with Schirach and Speer. He spent exactly 20 years in very close contact with them, and as well, he spent varying periods at Spandau with the other high-ranking Nazis incarcerated at Spandau too. I'm talking about the cream of the Nazi crop, people expected to be very familiar with the real Hess. Geez, Graham, he even sat right beside Göring during the long trial at Nuremberg.

[Graham]

"Even if there wasn't a phone at the farm I would imagine that there would have been one at Eaglesham House which is just accross the road from the farm and was at the time being used as an army barracks."

Graham, what you say here isn't necessarily so. In 1941 telephones in Scotland were very few and very far between. Even an army "barracks" (although I'd hesitate to call anything around Eaglesham a "barracks") would not necessarily have a phone.

Eaglesham House (pictured below) was commandeered by the army for use as a barracks during the war, it was, as you can see, a large mansion house, not a collection of tin sheds. I would imagine if you have the funds to run such a large house (and the family did, being described in one report as being so wealthy it was embarrassing) then the cost of a telephone wouldn't be too much of a problem.

"The assumption is also that McLean and his mother were alone with Hess"


Yes this is an assumption I've always made. Why? I'm not sure. I don't recall that McLean featured to any great extent in the first news of the Hess event. I didn't even become aware of the name until within the last few years! Hess' captor was always just referred to simply as a "ploughman". I don't know whether there were other people living at the farm or not. All the "action" at Eaglesham took place on a Saturday night and a Sunday morning, not times one would expect to find many farm people around the farm.

McLean was only a farm labourer he wasn't the farmer. He lived in a small house at the side of the main Floors Farm house where the farmer and his family stayed (and still do to this day).

"...it is feasible that whoever was in charge of operations at the time would have ensured that the story came across as showing a plucky working man capturing a high ranking Nazi, all such press coverage was good for moral."

Yes, it's feasible, but I'd venture a guess that no one knew who was in charge! One must try and imagine the impact this event had during the war. It was just unbelievable, and by this I mean no one believed Hess had actually flown to Scotland on his own, and was actually in Glasgow! It was stunning! During the initial 24 hours there would have been little or no time to organize any control over how any story was to "come across". This is why in my last post I emphasized that the reporter who 'scooped' the story did it outside the law...it was unofficial, with reference being made only to unofficial sources.

For what it's worth, "plucky" wasn't a word used much around Glasgow and I can't imagine a hard-nosed Sunday Mail reporter using it.

Nowhere in any of my posts do I make any claim that the word "plucky" was used by a reporter, from the Sunday Mail or any other paper. I merely used it as an example/descriptive term


By the way Graham, I noticed an absence of any comment in your post about the years Hess spent with Schirach and Speer. He spent exactly 20 years in very close contact with them, and as well, he spent varying periods at Spandau with the other high-ranking Nazis incarcerated at Spandau too. I'm talking about the cream of the Nazi crop, people expected to be very familiar with the real Hess. Geez, Graham, he even sat right beside Göring during the long trial at Nuremberg.[/quote]

You are assuming therefore that these individuals would have complained or "blown the whistle" (my words) on a fake Hess? You are also making the assumption that Hess,Schirach and Speer engaged in long conversations and covered topics which only the real Hess could have had knowledge on, but again neither of us knows if they did or not, or even if Schirach and Speer perhaps did suss the Spandau Hess to be a fake but kept quiet about it for a reason or reasons unbeknown to us.All either us can do is speculate on the matter. It is interesting to note that on the Scotsman newspaper website there is an article about Hess which recounts that at Nuremberg Goering, was asked about the man named Hess who was on trial with him. He replied: "Hess? Which Hess? The Hess you have here? Our Hess? Your Hess?"

From what I've seen and read of Hess pre-war he was a clever man but the Hess at Nuremberg, to coin a Glasgow phrase, doesn't (to me at least) look the full shilling......

[Graham]

"The assumption is also that McLean and his mother were alone with Hess"

I don't know whether there were other people living at the farm or not. All the "action" at Eaglesham took place on a Saturday night and a Sunday morning, not times one would expect to find many farm people around the farm.

I took a quick walk up to the farm and snapped some pics for you

In the first two pic you can see the McLean's cottage quite clearly, it is the small white building to the right of the picture. The main farmhouse is only a stone's throw away.





This next picture shows the approximate crash site. Unfortunately as you can see the new Glasgow South Orbital Road runs just in front of where the plane came down (over where the cows are) , so any scraps of the plane left in the field will be well and truly lost for good now!



This next picture shows the trees that can be seen in the background of some of the pics from the crash scene, although taken from a bit closer



and finally a new signpost which gives the distance to Eaglesham from the crash site which is pretty much dead ahead from the top of the road

[Dugald]

First of all Graham, before I get into the meat of the matter, thank you very much for all the pictures of the area where Hess landed. They are super pictures, and they show the area in question very well.

Item (1) "Eaglesham House (pictured below) was commandeered by the army for use as a barracks during the war, it was, as you can see, a large mansion house, not a collection of tin sheds."

I never imagined it was a collection of tin sheds; however your picture does make your point convincingly. I wouldn't doubt also, that they had a phone. What I would wonder about however, would be a ploughman having the nerve to approach such a barracks late on a May Saturday night: ya know what soldiers would be doing late on a Saturday night.... or even early on a Sunday morning.

I still feel that since all the "action" at Eaglesham took place on a Saturday night and a Sunday morning, one would not usually expect to find many farm people around the farm.

Now then Graham, let's get to this "plucky" bit. ( I'm making this "aside" because you used a very similar verbal 'tactic' in a previous posting regarding the mention of Hess having been incarcerated in Govan Police Station). Earlier today you said:

Item (2) "...it is feasible that whoever was in charge of operations at the time would have ensured that the story came across as showing a plucky working man capturing a high ranking Nazi, all such press coverage was good for moral.".

Now you say, "Nowhere in any of my posts do I make any claim that the word "plucky" was used by a reporter...". Regardless of whether you 'merely used it as an example/descriptive term', you certainly led one to conclude that the word "plucky" was used. You said it in Item(2) above when you made use of "hearsay". While it might not be admissible as testimony in a court of law (except maybe at Nuremberg), I am at liberty to assume you wanted it admissible here. We are not in a court of law, we are having a conversation, and in this conversation, if you quote another party in support of some contention of yours, then one is perfectly entitled to label this contention with your name.

With regard to the Spandau Prison comments. I do believe both Speer and Schirach had long conversations with Hess. I have read all of Speer's books on his prison time, and I have read Schirach's. I can think of no sensible reason why they would both choose not to expose Hess as a phoney if they knew he was one. I do agree however, that "All either us can do is speculate on the matter".

With regard to your Scotsman-Göring quotation :

"Hess? Which Hess? The Hess you have here? Our Hess? Your Hess?".

Did Göring not simply mean: "Do you mean the sick Hess who is here now; the Nazi Hess, or the British-brainwashed Hess?"[/b]. I don't believe for one minute that this Scotsman quotation has anything to do with Hess being an imposter. Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials. One concluding thought about Hess: can you imagine anyone remaining sane after going through what Hess went through?

[Graham]

[quote="Dugald"]
Item (1) "Eaglesham House (pictured below) was commandeered by the army for use as a barracks during the war, it was, as you can see, a large mansion house, not a collection of tin sheds."

I never imagined it was a collection of tin sheds;


however your picture does make your point convincingly. I wouldn't doubt also, that they had a phone. What I would wonder about however, would be a ploughman having the nerve to approach such a barracks late on a May Saturday night: ya know what soldiers would be doing late on a Saturday night.... or even early on a Sunday morning.

I still feel that since all the "action" at Eaglesham took place on a Saturday night and a Sunday morning, one would not usually expect to find many farm people around the farm.

I don't think I've ever come across a farm around here which is operated on a 9-5 basis and closed at weekends - farming is a 24/7 occupation and the farmers (here at least) tend to live on the farm premises - this is certainly the case with Floors Farm and always has been for as long as I can remember.

ya know what soldiers would be doing late on a Saturday night.... or even early on a Sunday morning

Actually I don't know, but I would imagine upon hearing a plane crash nearby most, if not all of them, would be up and out to see what was going on.

I must point out at this juncture that none of the "action" took place in Eaglesham as you claim - this is a common misconception. The farm is in Waterfoot,, even though it is home to Eaglesham House it is a hamlet in it's own right and not part of Eaglesham village. If I remember rightly the only person to get this fact right in his book was Hugh Thomas. One book even starts "When Rudolph Hess crashed in England" and time.com even claim on their website that "The first citizen of Britain to know about Hess's flight was David McLean, a tenant on the estate of the Duke of Hamilton, near Glasgow"

As an aside it was Thomas (if it was his book) who also made mention of the local policeman attending from the police house in Waterfoot - before reading this I had no idea there ever was a police house in the area, although it would certainly explains the one odd,out of place, house at Millerston Cottages.

Now then Graham, let's get to this "plucky" bit. ( I'm making this "aside" because you used a very similar verbal 'tactic' in a previous posting regarding the mention of Hess having been incarcerated in Govan Police Station). Earlier today you said:

Item (2) "...it is feasible that whoever was in charge of operations at the time would have ensured that the story came across as showing a plucky working man capturing a high ranking Nazi, all such press coverage was good for moral.".

Now you say, "Nowhere in any of my posts do I make any claim that the word "plucky" was used by a reporter...". Regardless of whether you 'merely used it as an example/descriptive term', you certainly led one to conclude that the word "plucky" was used. You said it in Item(2) above when you made use of "hearsay". While it might not be admissible as testimony in a court of law (except maybe at Nuremberg), I am at liberty to assume you wanted it admissible here. We are not in a court of law, we are having a conversation, and in this conversation, if you quote another party in support of some contention of yours, then one is perfectly entitled to label this contention with your name.

Nowhere did I "quote another party" with reference to the word "plucky" -my exact words were:

What would play better in the media...the tale of a plucky farm hand who captured a top-ranking Nazi with his trusty pitchfork, or what actually happened, with Mr McLean helping the injured Hess to his cottage and his mum making him a nice cup of tea? Surely the "pitchfork" version of events would stir the imagination more?

I don't see any reference to this being a quote, direct or otherwise, nor did I claim or infer thats the word plucky was actually used by the press. The word was used to illustrate how I personally would have described the image that the media were portraying with the story that was presented in the press. By your logic I have also committed myself to claiming the press used the words "trusty" in relation to the pitchfork and " nice" to describe the cup of tea he was offered, yet you failed to bring me to task over these two "offences".

I have also not used any "verbal" tactics as you claim - firstly because the word "verbal" implies spoken word when this is obviously not the medium through which this discussion is being conducted and secondly because you erroniously took the phrase "Alastair Dinsmore also informs me that both Giffnock and Govan police stations also claim to have had Hess as a resident" as proof positive that this is my point of view or that I otherwise believe it to be the truth. If you read it again you will see that I am merely reporting a fact (that this information was imparted to me by Mr Dinsmore) and am not offering or implying any opinion as to the validity of said statement.

With regard to the Spandau Prison comments. I do believe both Speer and Schirach had long conversations with Hess. I have read all of Speer's books on his prison time, and I have read Schirach's. I can think of no sensible reason why they would both choose not to expose Hess as a phoney if they knew he was one. I do agree however, that "All either of us can do is speculate on the matter".

This, as I am quite sure you would have pointed out had it been me making this statement , is pure conjecture. The fact that you believe it to be true,does not make it so, as I said previously, all either of can do is speculate.

With regard to your Scotsman-Göring quotation :

"Hess? Which Hess? The Hess you have here? Our Hess? Your Hess?".

Did Göring not simply mean: "Do you mean the sick Hess who is here now; the Nazi Hess, or the British-brainwashed Hess?". I don't believe for one minute that this Scotsman quotation has anything to do with Hess being an imposter. Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials. One concluding thought about Hess: can you imagine anyone remaining sane after going through what Hess went through?

"Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials"

Once again you are making a suposition and presenting your own personal opinion as if it were an established and verifiable fact. You have no way of knowing whether Göring was making use of hyberbole or not

Finally., can you imagine anyone remaining sane after going through what Hess went through?

It would be reasonable to assume therefore that all, or at least some, of his co-accused would show similar signs of mental degeneration, yet this does not appear to have been the case. If Hess had suffered the sort of mental breakdown that you are suggesting, then it casts doubt on your theory of Hess engaging in long,indepth conversations with Speer and Schirach.

Even if they did conclude that this Hess was an imposter do you really think they would alert their captors and urge them to seek out their real compatriate and incarcerate him in place of the doppleganger? Doesn't sound like a terribly persuasive arguement to me!

[Dugald]

Graham, I have used "Item (#)" only for quotations from your post of 3:01 am on April 27th. (I think this lot of mine has more to do with semantics than Hess!)

Item #(1) I don't think I've ever come across a farm around here which is operated on a 9-5 basis and closed at weekends

I know nothing about the farms around Eaglesham, nor anywhere else for that matter. But I do know something about people, and they generally tend to take part in some form of recreation on a Saturday night.

With regard to the soldiers in the barracks, I must agree with you that upon hearing a plane crash nearby they would be up and out to see what was going on. On a Saturday night however, I'd think most of these soldiers would be out enjoying some recreation. Oh yes, there be some in the barracks, but I wouldn't think too many.

Item #(2) I must point out at this juncture that none of the "action" took place in Eaglesham as you claim - this is a common misconception.

Hey c'mon Graham, isn't the use of "claim" here a bit strong? I simply used "Eaglesham" as the place where Hess and his plane came down. That's what the newspaper told us. I have never heard of "Waterfoot"! Anyway, if someone stopped me on the street today and said, "Hey, Mac, where did Hess land in Scotland?", I'm afraid I'd still answer "Eaglesham". By the way, I'd guess most of the world still believe that Hess landed in England.

Item #(3) "...firstly because the word "verbal" implies spoken word when this is obviously not the medium through which this discussion is being conducted..."

I just looked up "verbal" in my old reliable 1954 "Collins", and sure enough, just as I learned at Greenfield School in Govan, "verbal" simply means 'of, by, or relating to, words' ; and, according to a more recent dictionary, "Of, relating to, or associated with words, for example: a detailed verbal description.". Hmmmmm, contrary to what you say Graham, no mention of the words having to be spoken thus, the written word is consistent with the medium through which this discussion is being conducted.

Item #(4) "secondly because you erroniously took the phrase "Alastair Dinsmore also informs me that both Giffnock and Govan police stations also claim to have had Hess as a resident".

On April 3rd @5:29pm you said, "Alastair Dinsmore also informs me that both Giffnock and Govan police stations also claim to have had Hess as a resident, so it looks as if our German visitor must have had quite a busy night being ferried round all these different places!" Now, if you accept what Dinsmore said, and apparently you did, by virtue of your: " so it looks as if our German visitor must have had quite a busy night being ferried round all these different places", then the Govan incarceration is very much a part of the "being ferried around" conclusion, which you accepted! Thus Graham, I did not take your Dinsmore phrase erroneously.

Item #(5) By your logic I have also committed myself to claiming the press used the words "trusty" in relation to the pitchfork and " nice" to describe the cup of tea he was offered, yet you failed to bring me to task over these two "offences".

The reason I suppose I failed to "bring you to task" over "trusty' and "nice" is that I believe these words might well have been used by that hard-nosed reporter I mentioned: I don't think they were uncommon words in 1941 Scotland, whereas I think "plucky" was.

Item #(6) This, as I am quite sure you would have pointed out had it been me making this statement , is pure conjecture. The fact that you believe it to be true, does not make it so, as I said previously, all either of can do is speculate.

This quote was with respect to the Spandau Prison comments. Yes, it's pure conjecture, and the fact that I believe it to be true does not make it true. For the second time let me say: "I do agree however, that "All either of us can do is speculate on the matter".

With regard to your Scotsman-Göring quotation you say:
Item#(7) Once again you are making a suposition and presenting your own personal opinion as if it wer an established and verifiable fact.

No, no, Graham, I did not present my opinion as if it were an established and verifiable fact. I prefaced what I said with the words: " I don't believe for one minute"... clearly I was not presenting my thoughts as an established fact.

Item #(eight) You have no way of knowing whether Göring was making use of hyberbole or not.

Oh yes, I believe I do! The phrase in question is:
"Hess? Which Hess? The Hess you have here? Our Hess? Your Hess?".
To ask which one of the three different Hess's, when there was only one Hess, is to make use of a figure of speech. Since Göring was aware there was only one Hess present, yet chose to speak as if there were three present, he is exaggerating a situation for emphasis: he is bringing to the fore, the fact that it is the court who will decide which Hess is present. This is, by definition, the meaning of hyperbole. I still believe Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials.

Item #(9) It would be reasonable to assume therefore that all, or at least some, of his co-accused would show similar signs of mental degeneration, yet this does not appear to have been the case. If Hess had suffered the sort of mental breakdown that you are suggesting, then it casts doubt on your theory of Hess engaging in long,indepth conversations with Speer and Schirach.

Oh yes, I'd think all the Nazi hierarchy suffered mental degeneration to some extent. But I don't think it reasonable to overlook the fact that Hess was the only one who flew to Scotland under extremely challenging conditions, was the only one held prisoner in the UK for four years under more challenging conditions, and was the only one who fell out of favour with the Nazi Party to which I believe he was devoted. I do believe however, Hess was till capable of sensible conversation. His mental illness I think, was an acute depression into which he periodically succumbed. If he'd been raving mad and were an impostor I think he'd have blown the whistle on himself!

Item #(10) Even if they did conclude that this Hess was an imposter do you really think they would alert their captors and urge them to seek out their real compatriate and incarcerate him in place of the doppleganger? Doesn't sound like a terribly persuasive arguement to me!

I have never ever thought the Hess who landed at Eaglesham was an impostor, so I haven't really ever given any thought to whether the Nazis in Spandau would have alerted the captors to an impostor. I do feel however, that they would have blown the whistle on any such Doppelgänger.

There we are then Graham, and I feel as if I've done a day's work! Cheers, Dugald.

[Graham]

Graham, I have used "Item (#)" only for quotations from your post of 3:01 am on April 27th. (I think this lot of mine has more to do with semantics than Hess!)

Item #(1) I don't think I've ever come across a farm around here which is operated on a 9-5 basis and closed at weekends

I know nothing about the farms around Eaglesham, nor anywhere else for that matter. But I do know something about people, and they generally tend to take part in some form of recreation on a Saturday night.

It is possible that the farmer was out at the jiggin' on Saturday night, but, having met him, I doubt it

With regard to the soldiers in the barracks, I must agree with you that upon hearing a plane crash nearby they would be up and out to see what was going on. On a Saturday night however, I'd think most of these soldiers would be out enjoying some recreation. Oh yes, there be some in the barracks, but I wouldn't think too many.

there is nothing much in the way of recreational facilities in the area and I certainly don't recall any tales of any of the three small pubs Eaglesham being full of Polish soldiers at the time

Item #(2) I must point out at this juncture that none of the "action" took place in Eaglesham as you claim - this is a common misconception.

Hey c'mon Graham, isn't the use of "claim" here a bit strong? I simply used "Eaglesham" as the place where Hess and his plane came down. That's what the newspaper told us. I have never heard of "Waterfoot"! Anyway, if someone stopped me on the street today and said, "Hey, Mac, where did Hess land in Scotland?", I'm afraid I'd still answer "Eaglesham". By the way, I'd guess most of the world still believe that Hess landed in England.

I am merely applying the same level of interpretation to your writings as you do to mine. I'm applying local knowledge to my analysis of events whereas by your own admission you do not know anything about the area or it's people.

Item #(3) "...firstly because the word "verbal" implies spoken word when this is obviously not the medium through which this discussion is being conducted..."

I just looked up "verbal" in my old reliable 1954 "Collins", and sure enough, just as I learned at Greenfield School in Govan, "verbal" simply means 'of, by, or relating to, words' ; and, according to a more recent dictionary, "Of, relating to, or associated with words, for example: a detailed verbal description.". Hmmmmm, contrary to what you say Graham, no mention of the words having to be spoken thus, the written word is consistent with the medium through which this discussion is being conducted.

as we are no longer in 1954 I chose to use m-w.com (Websters) which gives the definition as "spoken, not written" , Chambers online dictionary gives exactly the same result

Item #(4) "secondly because you erroniously took the phrase "Alastair Dinsmore also informs me that both Giffnock and Govan police stations also claim to have had Hess as a resident".

On April 3rd @5:29pm you said, "Alastair Dinsmore also informs me that both Giffnock and Govan police stations also claim to have had Hess as a resident, so it looks as if our German visitor must have had quite a busy night being ferried round all these different places!" Now, if you accept what Dinsmore said, and apparently you did, by virtue of your: " so it looks as if our German visitor must have had quite a busy night being ferried round all these different places", then the Govan incarceration is very much a part of the "being ferried around" conclusion, which you accepted! Thus Graham, I did not take your Dinsmore phrase erroneously.

I stand corrected, I should have added a or similar to it to imply that I did not believe this myself (for the record Mr Dinsmore does not believe it either). Had I known my every word was going to be analysed by you I would have ensured that everything I typed was legally correct and not open to misinterpretation have another to make up for this

Item #(5) By your logic I have also committed myself to claiming the press used the words "trusty" in relation to the pitchfork and " nice" to describe the cup of tea he was offered, yet you failed to bring me to task over these two "offences".

The reason I suppose I failed to "bring you to task" over "trusty' and "nice" is that I believe these words might well have been used by that hard-nosed reporter I mentioned: I don't think they were uncommon words in 1941 Scotland, whereas I think "plucky" was.

I notice you have glossed over the bit where you state that I was quoting the word "plucky" from a 1941 publication. As I have said on several occassions now I only used the word in passing to highlight my point and you for some reason have taken it as the very cornerstone of my hypothesis. Have another for good measure.

Item #(6) This, as I am quite sure you would have pointed out had it been me making this statement , is pure conjecture. The fact that you believe it to be true, does not make it so, as I said previously, all either of can do is speculate.

This quote was with respect to the Spandau Prison comments. Yes, it's pure conjecture, and the fact that I believe it to be true does not make it true. For the second time let me say: "I do agree however, that "All either of us can do is speculate on the matter".
for once we seem to agree on something! yet another just to be on the safe side

With regard to your Scotsman-Göring quotation you say:
Item#(7) Once again you are making a suposition and presenting your own personal opinion as if it wer an established and verifiable fact.

No, no, Graham, I did not present my opinion as if it were an established and verifiable fact. I prefaced what I said with the words: " I don't believe for one minute"... clearly I was not presenting my thoughts as an established fact.


Item #(eight) You have no way of knowing whether Göring was making use of hyberbole or not.

Oh yes, I believe I do! The phrase in question is:
"Hess? Which Hess? The Hess you have here? Our Hess? Your Hess?".
To ask which one of the three different Hess's, when there was only one Hess, is to make use of a figure of speech. Since Göring was aware there was only one Hess present, yet chose to speak as if there were three present, he is exaggerating a situation for emphasis: he is bringing to the fore, the fact that it is the court who will decide which Hess is present. This is, by definition, the meaning of hyperbole. I still believe Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials.

Open to interpretation, as the phrase "I don't believe for one minute...." was applied to your previous sentence, not the one in question and "I don't believe for one minute Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials." and "Göring was making use of hyperbole to criticize the Nuremberg trials (as written)." can be taken to mean two entirely different things just in case

Item #(9) It would be reasonable to assume therefore that all, or at least some, of his co-accused would show similar signs of mental degeneration, yet this does not appear to have been the case. If Hess had suffered the sort of mental breakdown that you are suggesting, then it casts doubt on your theory of Hess engaging in long,indepth conversations with Speer and Schirach.

Oh yes, I'd think all the Nazi hierarchy suffered mental degeneration to some extent. But I don't think it reasonable to overlook the fact that Hess was the only one who flew to Scotland under extremely challenging conditions, was the only one held prisoner in the UK for four years under more challenging conditions, and was the only one who fell out of favour with the Nazi Party to which I believe he was devoted. I do believe however, Hess was till capable of sensible conversation. His mental illness I think, was an acute depression into which he periodically succumbed. If he'd been raving mad and were an impostor I think he'd have blown the whistle on himself!

Item #(10) Even if they did conclude that this Hess was an imposter do you really think they would alert their captors and urge them to seek out their real compatriate and incarcerate him in place of the doppleganger? Doesn't sound like a terribly persuasive arguement to me!

I have never ever thought the Hess who landed at Eaglesham was an impostor, so I haven't really ever given any thought to whether the Nazis in Spandau would have alerted the captors to an impostor. I do feel however, that they would have blown the whistle on any such Doppelgänger.

The point about Hess' mental state is valid, but I'm not so sure that Speer and Schirach would have run to their captors and informed them that the man imprisoned as Hess had they thought he was an imposter. For all they knew their real compatriate could have been safe and well living under a new identity so I doubt they would have gone out of their way to cause him trouble and initiate a manhunt for him

There we are then Graham, and I feel as if I've done a day's work! (now you know how I felt answering your last TWO posts - Graham) Cheers, Dugald.

As a footnote, my interest in the Hess case lies purely with his connection with the local area, whether it was him or not who ended up in Spandau really doesn't concern me terribly much, however if I get the time I will see what I can dig up in the Mitchell for you next time I'm in -maybe something new will come to light . If there is anything in particular you want me to have look out for let me know and I'll see what I can do.

[Dugald]

"If there is anything in particular you want me to have look out for let me know and I'll see what I can do."

Graham, thank you for your reply, and thank you for this offer. Yes, I do have some historical interest with regard to the Hess affair, and I think it might be helpful to hear what the Glasgow newspaper which broke the story had to say back in 1941. When the story was first published, it is just possible that there hadn't been time to 'doctor' the story.

There's another aspect to my interest, a much more Mickey Mouse aspect, which really has nothing to do with Hess. I'd like to know if the news was first presented in the Sunday Mail of May 11th, or the Daily Record of May 12th ( it is the date which I'd like to know for sure). The reason for this is that to my kids I have always trumpeted the fact that I'd only ever missed one day at school in Govan, and that was a "plunked" day. However, if I rode on my bike from Govan looking for the Hess aircraft on a Monday (got lost and finished up in a wee village called East Kilbride), then I must have "plunked" another day, for schools were not closed. If it was the Sunday Mail, then no problem, my trumpeting is justified. Well, I did tell you it was a Mickey Mouse aspect!
Cheers, dugald..

[Graham]

Dugald's ging to love this one

Quoted verbatim from http://www.canadianwarbrides.com (which is not a dating site before HH asks );

Ann Johnston was born on December 8, 1922 in Glasgow, Scotland. When war was declared, she joined the nursing sisters where she did her training at Mearnskirk, near Glasgow. On May 10, 1941, she had an unexpected encounter with Rudolf Hess, Hitler's right hand man.

One night at Mearnskirk, the phone rang. A German plane had landed in a farmer’s field. It had one person in it. My buddy and I went out with the ambulance, and found this guy on the ground, the farmer standing over him with a pitch fork. It turned out to be Rudolf Hess, one of Hitler’s top men . He was looking for the Duke of Hamilton - thinking he might be able to stop the War. We brought him to Mearnskirk with a broken ankle. He had that fixed, and then was sent to a castle in Scotland, where he stayed until the war ended. We knew that if he stayed in Mearnskirk, spies would know. German spies were everywhere. This could have caused the hospital to be bombed.

Does this mean McLean marched poor ol' Hess back out into the field to await the ambulance Who telephoned Mearnskirk and why does nobody else mention this visit there in other accounts of the landing? Answers on a postcard please!

I must tally up all the different people who claim to have been at the farm alone with Hess and the McLeans, so far we have the local policeman, McLean's "press contact" and now the ambulance crew!

[Dugald]

Well Graham, you got one thing dead right... Dugald does love it!

I went to the site you recommended, and had a read at what Ann Johnton had to say. Very interesting stuff indeed. She had one or two things wrong, but they're not all that important and quite readily explained. For example, she says: " A German plane had landed in a farmer's field", and we know this just didn't happen, but she could well have simply meant something like "The plane crashed"... it did after all really "land ", albeit after a fashion. Now regarding the "sent to a castle in Scotland" bit, again this could well have been Buchanan Castle, or Maryhill Barracks, since to 19-year old nurse I'm sure a barracks and a castle could well be one and the same. The "until the war ended" part, I'd guess, was something she herself just 'guessed'. None of the three items is important, and makes any great difference to the Hess story.

To Ann, I'd guess the Hess affair is but a very incidental part of the interesting "war bride" story she is telling. She does have the basic facts correct: A German plane 'lands' in Scotland; Hess is the pilot; Hess has a broken ankle; Hess is looking for the Duke of Hamilton; Hess thinks Hamilton might might be able to [help] stop the War. The "We knew that if he stayed in Mearnskirk, spies would know. German spies were everywhere " suggests a level of naïvety we might expect from a 19 year-old nurse-in-training.

I have no idea how McLean makes his debut in the Hess Affair, but let me say, when Ann says:

" My buddy and I went out with the ambulance, and found this guy on the ground, the farmer standing over him with a pitch fork"

I believe she has allowed subsequent events, both public and personal, to cloud her memory. Do you think Hess would have been left lying on the ground in field until an ambulance arrived? I certainly don't. There is no doubt time is out of joint in the Hess saga, but I don't think I'm about to let the story of a Canadian war bride modify my thinking to any great extent. I would still like to hear what the newspaper reporter had to say.

Anyway Graham, I'm still a long way short of accepting anything like "after a few questions to confirm the deputy Fuhrer's identity, my grandfather finished his tea and shot him.". But I did enjoy Ann's story.