Tesco Pollok Silverburn

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Postby escotregen » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:12 am

My point was about what local people would prefer, rather than about economic impact. I think that local people would just prefer a supermarket/hypermarket to a few 'two bit' shops. I don't see why they should be expected to put up with sub standard amenities because of some notion about cosy wee corner shops.

(and sorry about the typos in the earlier posting)

However, on the economic impact; you might be interested in some of the stats on local employment - especially the partnership deals the supermarket chains enter into on recruiting unemployed local people. TESCO for example did extremely well on this in the Springburn opening, and as I've already mentioned they are doing a similar deal in Pollok.

My friend's recent experience of local two-bit shops was when the bakery offered his student daughter a part-time job at below the legal national minimum wage. Impoverishing local residents through illegal and undercut wages will hardly help the local economy. On another aside, I understand that most of the ecoli outbreaks among the wider public in Scotland have emanated from wee local butchers.
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Postby Sharon » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:06 am

Staying on economic impact. Is it not the case that it's actually economic displacement, in the sense that what is actually happening is more money flowing out of the area that Tescos (pick your MegaCorp) "invest" in? Similar to what bringing the Super Casino to Ibrox would be if it didnt attract people into the area.

Dodgy metaphor time, but is it not like putting a big dairy in (tescos) and milking the cows (locals) dry and shipping the milk off elsewhere for the fat cats to drink? Yeah, i know, there are probaly better metaphors...

Is it not reinforcing the poverty gap? Given that the fatcats get richer ELSEWHERE... and the best that Pollok resdents get are some lowend retail jobs? I'd actually be quite interested in seeing the full economic case for this particular development comparing the benefits for Pollok - jobs, inward investment, commUnity projects (this in particular creeps me out - in the same way as sports equipment for schools on the back of crisp packets - Sainsburys the guilty ones this time) to what profits Tescos make.

And remember that you sjmply cannot look at this as an indvidual case, becuse it is not. This is happeing everywhere, Tescos continue to be given more and more power in return for limited benefits to localised projects.

Where does it end? Tescos value health care? Tescos value education? Tescos value government?

What happens in the future of the retail economy?

And yes i do appreciate all the arguments for these jobs, and that they aren't all lowend jobs.

I do think its incredibly sad that this is possibly the best that could be achieved for Pollok. I'm not even sure I wouln't have made the same decisions. Although given my fears for the bigger picture, I'd have looked long and hard for an alternative. Were there any alternatives proposed for regenerating Pollok, if thats what Silverburn fall under?
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Postby Vladimir » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:13 am

Given that the fatcats get richer ELSEWHERE


The name being 'London' where most of the money inevitably goes. How many companies are actually Scottish owned these days anyway? Glasgow and most other cities seem almost to be designed to exist on a level just able to buy the goods, poor enough to work in the shops, but not able to rise above that level and upset the balance that has been built up. I know cities such as Edinburgh are successful, but even there exists a consuming underclass to buy and work at a low level.
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Postby Pgcc93 » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:27 am

sharon wrote:
What happens in the future of the retail economy?


The answer lies within this thread unfortunatley. I can't see may alternatives on the horizon either. :(




Vladimir wrote:
Given that the fatcats get richer ELSEWHERE


a consuming underclass to buy and work at a low level.


That's a great term of phrase and all too true.
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Postby crusty_bint » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:43 am

I wonder how many people participating in this discussion actually know anything about Pollok and how many "local shops" there are? Choice in Pollok has always been limited to the half dozen ground floor Corpy tenement shop rows which are (and as far as Im aware, always have been!) woefully inadequate and not fit for purpose. And what is contained within these shop rows? Your usual wee clatty shoap and a chemist and a bookies if your lucky! Or a tiny Co-Op if you're REALLY lucky! Are small "local Co-ops a better option? Do thier takings stay local? No. They go to Manchester.

This displacement argument too... I remember a time not so long ago when the same argument, only with a downright racist twist, was being used when members of the Asian communities started monopolising the small grocer market. The market shifted then and it is doing so again. Much like markets do and always have done.

As Sharon points out, this is not a phenomenon restricted to Glasgow, or even the UK - its global! I understand and can empathise (on certain levels) with both arguments but faced with the choice, I know where Id rather shop.

In regards to an alternative, the only successful one I have seen was somewere in England (can't remember) a Tesco (one of these smaller food stores) opened on the High St, and people inevetably started shopping there rather than the local shops. So one of the locals shop owners decided to expand, rebrand and upmarket his corporate image (if you like) with a new Deli section and such like. This inevetably added a few pence markup on his wares but it was a success, and he now happily competes with the local Tesco. Whats my point? The guy adapted and filled a niche the Tesco store couldn't accomodate. He used his head and moved his business up a notch.

A lesson to be learned.
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Postby escotregen » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:07 pm

Well posted shaunybhoy - a real local resident with a real job and good wages, and all in the big bad retail sector. Good on you.

On other comments: about the ‘displacement’ perspective, markets and consumer preferences don’t stay unchanging. If you don’t improve the efficiency of service to your local market and adapt to provide what the consumers want at a price they will pay, someone else from somewhere else will provide the service instead. If you adapt and develop your service then you will consolidate your local market and can then expand elsewhere. If you continue this all the way up the scale you get to where the retail sector now is at national and international level. Incidentally, USA and European retail chains are right now developing out into the Chinese hinterland from where they have been quietly establishing themselves.

Being even a lowly paid employee in a giant supermarket chain provides at least a possible avenue up the skills and career ladder for local people in a deprived area; being employed in a typical wee corner shop in a poor area is a career road to nowhere. Social exclusion in poor areas has been endemic for half a century, why blame this is on the supermarkets who have only more recently appeared in these areas? Maybe just ‘cos the supermarkets don’t fit some blinkered perception of ‘real jobs’?

If wee local shops want to just sit still, living off the backs of the local community through poor products, service and high prices they do get ‘displaced’ i.e. found out when they have to face competition. It’s just a pity this process takes so long.

However, the evidence on all this is admittedly very thin. The think tank DEMOS published a paper last year arguing that retail chains are turning High Streets into ghost towns… and yet TESCO and Sainsbury are returning to the traditional High Street. A study, in Birmingham I think, showed that with the opening of a ASDA hypermarket in a run-down area the consumption of fresh fruit and veg went up; have you seen the quality of fruit and veg in the typical wee corner shop,? Yuck!).

I agree with Crusty’s possible prescription for local traders to get real and adapt. They could provide a service highly customised to their local market in ways that the big giants cannot. In Victorian times, many local independent retailers were driven by more than just profit. They banded together on procurement, merchandising and marketing – it was of course the Co-operative movement.

Sadly, the Co-op long-lost it way due to inept and irrelevant political and idealogical leadership. I acknowledge the point about takings having in the past ‘gone to Manchester’. But there are big changes afoot in the movement with new store openings and acquisitions (especially local all hours outlets) and a great track record on FairTrade. That’s why I’m for one now active in the movement (so vote for me if you’re a Co-op employee or member in South Lanarkshire).
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Postby Shazbat » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:31 pm

Escotregen Wrote:
If wee local shops want to just sit still, living off the backs of the local community through poor products, service and high prices they do get ‘displaced’ i.e. found out when they have to face competition


Hmm, some of the wee and not so wee local shops and stores don't stand a chance when faced with the likes of Braehead on their doorstep. Witness the dying throes of Paisley. :(
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Postby crusty_bint » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:52 pm

Which is very sad indeed Shazbat. However, you can't simply nor solely put that down to the existance of Braehead. I see it more a failing of Government as Glasgow (the economic driving force of Scotland never mind te West Coast!) doesn't have Metropolitan status thus putting at risk the economies of it's conurbation. As it stands Glasgow has to protect its interests above all other LA's and vice versa which leads to this kind of scenario and an apparent lack of joined-up thinking.

In regards to Escottys point about the expansion of these international retailers - well exactly! Tesco didn't just happen, neither did ASDA (which sort of started out as a Co-operative society) or any other example you might like to cite. These businesses grew and expanded from an initial local trade base into the companies they are now. They are successful because they offered something better than their competitors.

I love my city and want the best for it and it breaks my heart to see dead high streets. However, for a city where poverty is so rife (as so many people are eager to point out), how and why would anyone deny us a place to buy some cheap messages? It's alright for us lot sitting with out £1000 pc's and high speed internet connections, at least we have a choice - plenty don't! I'd rather see empty shop units than children with malnutrition

When I can go to a local shop and buy a pint of organic milk that isn't over the odds and can rest assured they'll have what I want then I will. Until then I'll stick to the supermarket.
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Postby escotregen » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:01 pm

Shazbat that's an interesting one. My take is that years before Braehead, Paisley was well on it's way down; due to high (local!) council taxes on (local!) businesses, collapse of local industry etc.

As I pointed out before, the supermarket giants employ and develop a lot of clever. highly skilled people using state-of-the-art IT and management techniques. Just the type of people who spot opportunties such as when a traditional shopping centre is on it's way out and there's a niche opening up for them. If you like, the supermarkets and shopping malls are a symptom of the decline of the old centres and not a cause.

There was a similar theory about Govan's decline as a shopping centre. Much of it was blamed (in rear-view thinking) on the opening of the nearby ASDA hypermarket. In work for local clients, I demonstrated that ASDA in fact came well after the decline was almost complete. As though to prove the point, Braehead came along even later and now Govan ASDA and Braehead prosper together.

The new market that was developed in the Govan/Paisley communities and hinterlands was clearly not being catered for by the older amenities. There's something structural and long-term going on here and it's little to do with a local hypermarket or shopping mall opening up.

Unfortunately, I have to say again that the factual evidence of what's actually happening is thin or non-existent. I'm sure there are some socio-economic analysts who read HG and who could give us some evidence material and sources on all this - come on guys and girls!
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Postby Shazbat » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:42 pm

Thanks Esco.
It is a complex issue, with factors no doubt linked to the decline of industries (manufacturing in Paisley, shipbuilding in Govan).
Govan's motto: Nihil Sine Labore (Nothing Without Work), probably sums it up.
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Postby Alex Glass » Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:20 pm

For the record I did not say I didn't care about local shops. Where they provide a good service to the community they are valued.

I spoke recently with one of my local shopkeepers who was keen to see the development of the shopping centre. He has a large double unit shop and is wanting to expand. He thinks the new centre is an opportunity for him to do better that he is currently in a community with few jobs and not enough money to shop in his premises. I had a discussion recently where I stated that I believe not enough is don in private estates to provide local shops for people to get up in the morning and walk to the local shop for their paper, milk and rolls or whatever they may wish to buy without having to get in the car and drive to the nearest shop.

Also I should point out for anyone interested that the shopping centre alown will not regenerate the Greater Pollok area. But it will give it a kick in the right direction. This is only my opinion. No one came along and said lets regenerate Pollok by building a shopping centre. The first thing to happen that made the shopping centre development possible was the opening of the M77. For those with the arguments ready about the expansion of our motorway network as a bad thing. We has these arguments over ten years ago.
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Postby Alycidon » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:39 pm

Visited the store for the first time this evening and I can tell you that one "local shop" that will really suffer is Asda at Newton Mearns. and not before time too!!
[img]http://www.jhowie.force9.co.uk/emu314carcream.gif[/img]

We must perform a Quirkafleeg!!!!
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Postby allyharp » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:35 am

I was over there tonight and bloody hell it's big! 8O 8O
They only had on 1 proper till and 3 self-service tills surpervised by one poor woman who was dealing with problems the whole time. It took about 10 minutes for me to properly put through a magazine, a Frijj Milkshake, a Caramac and 3 CDs. She had to help twice because the stupid thing kept saying something extra was in the bag. :?
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Postby Mori » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:43 am

I noticed that ASDA Govan has more carparking Spaces than usual too and you get throught the checkouts faster, so it must be affecting them badly from all over and the M8 roadworks wont at the moment wont be doing Asda any favours as well.

Havent been to Tesco's yet but will give it a try soon.
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Postby Flyingscot » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:34 am

Mori wrote:I noticed that ASDA Govan has more carparking Spaces than usual too and you get throught the checkouts faster, so it must be affecting them badly from all over and the M8 roadworks wont at the moment wont be doing Asda any favours as well.

Havent been to Tesco's yet but will give it a try soon.


Be prepared for a loooong wait to get in. Took about 30 minutes to get from Brockburn Road to the Car Parks as it was all jammed up- only 1 lane into Tescos and only 2 lanes on the roundabout and 1 lane coned off on Brockburn Road with the roadworks. You only get 7 or so car turned in one go of the traffic lights and when there is a 1/4 mile queue... I know the supermarket was needed again in the area but it really shouldn't be allowed to have been opened before the majority of the roadworks were completed- other places aren't usually allowed to because of the impact on traffic....

On the shop, it's O.K, but just another supermarket IMHO. Bit warehousey for my liking, I've been in another Tesco Extra in Peterborough which was far worse thou it was like Makro! It's O.K but I'll probably keep going to Morrisons in Paisley- Tesco is too big to be used regularly IMHO, things are quite far away at times. Apparently some of the staff it are from Coatbridge, not enough local staff to cope at the moment.

Been to the petrol station on Monday and got pissed off with the pumps. You have to press whether you want to pay at pump or kiosk which loads of people miss and they stand there for ages so you have to wait for ages to get a pump. When I did, it gushed diesel all over me and the forecourt before I'd put it in the car or before it reset the total from the last person to use it. It then just cut off on me- refused to put any more fuel in at one point! Not the most successful times, but it was cheap as hell.

Anyway evening times was reporting yesterday that the government is considering out of town retailers like Silverburn and Braehead to have either congestion charging or parking tariffs enforced due to there high car usuage which isn't sustainable compared with regular town centres.

That would only be a good thing IMHO. Paisley hit a decline when it sorted traffic out and was made less car friendly- although a bit excessive IMHO the Braehead came allong with the knockout blow.
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