Lockerbie Remembered

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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby boukra » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:07 pm

Having lived in Libya, I was surprised to learn that there must be a FlagsRus shop in Tripoli. Just where did those saltires come from?

I remember, after the bombing of Tripoli, that " ruthless " expulsions were to be carried out. In the event British companies were asked to nominate their quota of expulsions with emphasis on those with completed contracts or who just wanted to go home.

Also remember waiting in sweltering heat at Tripoli airport, the last desperate drinks on board the plane fast evaporating, while anyone with an American passport was asked to make themselves known, and thereby receiving five star treatment, fast tracking through the notorious Libyan bureacracy. I know it was meant to make American claims about axis of evil etc. look wrong but I still felt jealous. Any chance that us Scots will now receive similar preferential treatment when an incredible country like Libya opens up more to tourism.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby Socceroo » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:01 pm

Even if al-Megrahi was involved he was not acting alone.

If it was a Libyan plot then Gadafi would have been involved, which makes Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, the US Secretary of State and the Duke of York’s pandering to him sickening. That should be more of a concern to the relatives of the Lockerbie victims than the release of a terminally ill man who was acting on the Instructions of a Dictator.

The decision to release him was one of compassion. I believe it was the correct decision that was made. I think if we had a Labour Government in Scotland they would have arrived at the same decision. Although they will argue otherwise.

I thought Kenny Macaskill was like the Rev IM Jolly on acid giving a 25 minute sermon.

They are so many aspects to the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 that will not come to light for a long time.

Why did the US pay a Maltese Shopkeeper millions of dollars as a reward for a witness statement and the identification of al-Megrahi?

Why did David Miliband sign a Public Interest Immunity certificate blocking the release of key evidence which could have been used by al-Megrahi in his appeal?
Last edited by Socceroo on Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby scaryman2u » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:22 pm

BrigitDoon wrote:
scaryman2u wrote:Politics and morals have no place in the same sentence.

Yet you place them thus, anyway. ;)

:D
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby onyirtodd » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:01 pm

Socceroo wrote: Even if al-Megrahi was involved he was not acting alone.


I think everyone can agree on that.

Socceroo wrote:If it was a Libyan plot then Gadafi would have been involved, which makes Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, the US Secretary of State and the Duke of York’s pandering to him sickening. That should be more of a concern to the relatives of the Lockerbie victims than the release of a terminally ill man who was acting on the Instructions of a Dictator.


The only person proven to be pandering to Libya is MacAskill.

I note the Director of the FBI has written to MacAskill pointing out that he (MacAskill) is a arse.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby Socceroo » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:25 pm

onyirtodd wrote: The only person proven to be pandering to Libya is MacAskill....


Nope I would say that Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, the US Secretary of State and the Duke of York were pandering to Gadafi. They went out their way to visit him in his tent.

If i recall correctly in the mid 80's Ronald Reagan was sending in Jets from Air Bases in the UK to Bomb him out his tent after the Libyan's were allegedly involved in a bombing of a disco in Germany. I think like the Lockerbie Bombing Gadafi's Government accepted responsibility and gave compensation.

1980's - Libyans allegedly bomb Americans in Germany - USA bombs his tents in retaliation - then they are all big pals with the alleged perpetrator in his tent in 2008.

1980's - Libyans allegedly bomb Americans over Lockerbie - al-megrahi is jailed eventually - released and the USA is very upset

It is easier to blame the Scottish Government than the Libyan Government. You would think that Kenny Macaskill planted the bomb on the plane with all the crap that the Americans are putting out. If George Dubya Boosh was still in power the F15's would have been over Glasgow on Thursday night.

The American Politicians are upset because the media is upset and because there are understandably a lot of upset families.

The decision on Thursday was one of compassion. The decision to meet a despot in his tent is shameful and driven out of greed.
Last edited by Socceroo on Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby Josef » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:26 pm

Can you summarise your point here, Onny? I'm getting a bit distracted, I fear. My memory is that it was that you had no objection on moral grounds to the decision, but feared it's implications for the normal course of Justice?

Anyway, apologies in advance for the cross-posting, which I don't recall doing before and will try to avoid in future, but :

Hoisted from a link from the ever-interesting Milligna on another Glasgow site :

Statement by Dr. Hans Koechler, International Observer, appointed by the United Nations, at the Lockerbie Trial in the Netherlands

Domestic and international legal aspects of the release

[...]The decision by Scotland’s Justice Secretary, Kenny MacAskill, was in conformity with Scots law and did not violate any international obligation of the United Kingdom [..]


Omission by Scotland's Justice Secretary of any reference to the decision of Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission

Mr. MacAskill was right, in political as well as legal terms, in releasing Mr. Al Megrahi on compassionate grounds. However, in yesterday’s statement explaining his decision, he failed the test of statesmanship or judicial expertise. Upon concluding his statement he appeared more like a Prosecutor in a trial, suddenly assuming a vindictive tone and trying to convince the court of the guilt of the indicted, not like the Secretary of Justice who has to make a decision that is not related to the question of guilt or innocence (as is the case with “release on compassionate grounds” according to Scots law).

It is noteworthy that, in his statement, the Justice Secretary did not in any way take note of the fact that - in the years since the trial court's decision on 31 January 2001 - serious doubts have arisen about the guilty verdict and that the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC) – after four (!) years of painstaking investigations – had stated (in June 2007) that it suspects a miscarriage of justice and had, thus, referred the case back to the appeal court. He did – obviously deliberately – overlook the finding of the SCCRC according to which “there is no reasonable basis in the trial court’s judgment for its conclusion that the purchase [by Mr. Al Megrahi] of the items [clothes] from Mary’s House, took place on 7 December 1988.” It does not need special intellectual skills to realize that the entire verdict collapses if there is no proof for the assertion that Mr. Al Megrahi was the person who bought clothes on that particular day in that particular shop in Malta.

In view of the appeal now having been aborted, the work of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission will have been in vain. The least that is to be expected from the Scottish judicial authorities is that they publish the full report of the Commission. Up to the present moment, not only the full report has not been released into the public domain, several grounds of appeal given by the Commission are being kept secret.[....]


Now there is the issue, surely?
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby onyirtodd » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:32 pm

Socceroo wrote: .
It is easier to blame the Scottish Government than the Libyan Government. You would think that Kenny Macaskill planted the bomb on the plane with all the crap that the Americans are putting out. If George Dubya Boosh was still in power the F15's would have been over Glasgow on Thursday night.

....................... .


I've gotten into bother elsewhere for pointing out that Scotland has 1) access to oil and 2) pissed off Uncle Sam. We know how Uncle Sam reacts in such circumstances :wink:
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby HollowHorn » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:18 pm

Socceroo wrote:1980's - Libyans allegedly bomb Americans in Germany - USA bombs his tents in retaliation - then they are all big pals with the alleged perpetrator in his tent in 2008.


Mr. Gaddafi must have had his best poker face on.

It was claimed that the air strike killed at least 40 people in Libya. Forewarned by a telephone call from Malta's Prime Minister, Karmenu Mifsud Bonnici, that unauthorized aircraft were flying over Maltese airspace heading south towards Tripoli, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and his family rushed out of their residence in the Bab al Aziziya compound moments before the bombs dropped. Gaddafi escaped injury but his 15-month-old adopted daughter Hanna was killed, and two of his sons were injured


Just as well it's only flickering pictures on the telly.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby John » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:50 am

"Dear Muammar....happy Ramadan.." - Gordon Brown.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/2 ... -lockerbie

From the Guardian too!
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby onyirtodd » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:54 am

John wrote:"Dear Muammar....happy Ramadan.." - Gordon Brown.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/2 ... -lockerbie

From the Guardian too!


And yet some people still insist Gordon doesn't have a sense of humour :roll:
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby Caltonboy » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:04 pm

"If George Dubya Boosh was still in power the F15's would have been over Glasgow on Thursday night."


wit? nae edinburgh visits?

we had enough yanks at the barrowland in the 40's :D
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby Bing Buzby » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:53 pm

So Scottish soldiers dying for an American imperial adventure in Iraq and Afghanistan is not enough for some knuckle draggers?

If some eedjit decides to to cancel their bus tour of the lochs over this, then that is easily a price worth paying for a justice system that does not bow before the whimsy of Fox News.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby wee minxy » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:40 pm

Aye, it would be nice to see Luss nice and quiet for a change :P
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby HollowHorn » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:02 pm

The last three posts are excellenty. Btw.
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Re: Lockerbie Remembered

Postby tedmaul » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:02 am

Bing Buzby wrote:If some eedjit decides to to cancel their bus tour of the lochs over this, then that is easily a price worth paying for a justice system that does not bow before the whimsy of Fox News.


The Justice Secretary is in charge of justice, that's correct.

He is not charge of the nation's compassion.

If we needed a Compassion Secretary, we could vote for one.
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