Binge Drinking

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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby Roxburgh » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:13 pm

You have a "control" problem because you are projecting your own personal issues on to the behaviour of others without any knowledge of their circumstances.

My argument is that the measures that have been proposed punish reasonable drinkers to the same extent that they may help with unreasonable ones. They are a "blunt instrument" rather than sensible targeted measures designed to drive a cultural and behaviourable change.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby lynnski » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:35 pm

For fuck's sake, I do not have a control problem, no matter how you try and word it. You are the one projecting an opinion of me without ever having met me. I am perfectly entitled to my opinion on any matter, and if it differs from yours, than that's when debate and discussion start, not name calling and abuse. Try and think about binge drinking for what it is, which is after all what this topic is about. Nobody's saying people shouldn't be free to go to the pub or buy themselves a bottle of wine or whatever, we're saying binge drinking is a serious problem in Scotland and peoples' attitudes to drinking in general need to change. If the price of booze is put up a bit, then perhaps it might make people say to themselves, 'can I really afford that bottle of wine tonight?' instead of just buying booze whenever they feel like it, to hell with the effect it'll have on their health.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby Roxburgh » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:43 pm

lynnski wrote:For fuck's sake, I do not have a control problem, no matter how you try and word it. You are the one projecting an opinion of me without ever having met me. I am perfectly entitled to my opinion on any matter, and if it differs from yours, than that's when debate and discussion start, not name calling and abuse. Try and think about binge drinking for what it is, which is after all what this topic is about. Nobody's saying people shouldn't be free to go to the pub or buy themselves a bottle of wine or whatever, we're saying binge drinking is a serious problem in Scotland and peoples' attitudes to drinking in general need to change. If the price of booze is put up a bit, then perhaps it might make people say to themselves, 'can I really afford that bottle of wine tonight?' instead of just buying booze whenever they feel like it, to hell with the effect it'll have on their health.


Exactly the point I am trying to make. Your argument is a "blunt instrument" which fails to go to the root of the problem and which targets all drinkers ... reasonable or binge ... alike.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby onyirtodd » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:59 pm

Roxburgh wrote:
lynnski wrote:For fuck's sake, I do not have a control problem, no matter how you try and word it. You are the one projecting an opinion of me without ever having met me. I am perfectly entitled to my opinion on any matter, and if it differs from yours, than that's when debate and discussion start, not name calling and abuse. Try and think about binge drinking for what it is, which is after all what this topic is about. Nobody's saying people shouldn't be free to go to the pub or buy themselves a bottle of wine or whatever, we're saying binge drinking is a serious problem in Scotland and peoples' attitudes to drinking in general need to change. If the price of booze is put up a bit, then perhaps it might make people say to themselves, 'can I really afford that bottle of wine tonight?' instead of just buying booze whenever they feel like it, to hell with the effect it'll have on their health.


Exactly the point I am trying to make. Your argument is a "blunt instrument" which fails to go to the root of the problem and which targets all drinkers ... reasonable or binge ... alike.


Relax Roxburgh. It's SNP policy and so, by definition, it isn't going to happen :wink:
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby samscafeamericain » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:02 am

lynnski wrote:
Roxburgh wrote:
lynnski wrote:You, however, clearly have a "control" problem.


No, I have an alcoholic uncle who ruins family occasions and generally causes havoc in our lives, and most importantly the lives of his teenage sons. I have seen first hand the damage alcoholism can do. Binge drinking is the first step on the wobbly road to alcoholism. I've already said it, let me refresh the memories of those who have glossed over it, you will NOT stop a true alcoholic drinking themselves to death no matter what the cost of the drink. I feel however, if the cost of the more popular tipples of teenagers was higher, then maybe our kiddies wouldn't be drinking so much, they'd probably still drink, I did, but they might only have one bottle of mad dog instead of 2, or 3. I am not saying people should be penalised for enjoying themselves, I myself enjoy a good drink, but I have over the years learned my limits. A lot of people haven't yet, they are the binge drinkers and the future alcoholics. To accuse me of having a control problem is an immature and idiotic knee jerk reaction to someone presenting you with the harsh realities of what long term alcohol abuse can do to a person. And alcohol abuse includes binge drinking, for the hard of thinking.


Lynnski, what would help me understand where you are coming from is if you would define binge drinking. Current definitions of more than a couple of pints are in my opinion nonsense.

I also think your argument is flawed, you state that true alcoholics will not be stopped by cost, but you then state that binge drinking (whatever that may be) is the first step to alcoholism and will be stopped by cost. I seriously doubt that, we've had binge drinkers and alcoholics since time began. What we used to get was alcoholics drinking dangerous products (meths) because booze was so expensive.

The problem is one of education, as you state you have learned your limit, we need to educate others to do the same.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby escotregen » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:55 am

Samscafeamericain the problem is not one of education – if only it were that simple. There is a peculiar and deep-seated problem of culture in Scottish society. Many (most in some communities?) of our people are resistant to the messages on moderation, or at least a degree of self-care and control. Much of our so-called humour is derived from the catastrophic effects of excess drinking.You cannot educate people who are in a culture that renders them unwilling or unable to accept education and learning on such a matter.

And let’s have a wee bit of common sense here; we do not need an ‘evidence base’ or definition of what binge drinking is. Such minutia is irrelevant in the face of what is a national malaise. But just to be going on with, if you don’t understand it, when somebody just keeps going on a non-stop session of drinking alcohol until they are incapably or near-incapably drunk, and for no other reason than to do that – that’s binge drinking.

Distractions such as ‘its my life and I can drink what I want to’ or ‘it’s a matter of personal freedom’; have been long discounted as reasons for not doing good and sensible things in the interests of the community, and the individuals themselves. For example excessive speed driving, driving under the influence, driving without seat belts – all the same arguments were used ling and hard. Thankfully, the rest of us said to these folks ‘tough if you’ve got to loss a little freedom and choice, when it’s the legitimate interest of these rest of us and our families and communities that’s at risk’.

Where people do not want to learn or ‘be educated’ (just read Roxburgh’s recurrent use of abusive or dismissive language) there comes a point where the rest of us are entitled to say enough is enough.

On a final note Samscafeamericain you are completely wrong about cost and alcohol. Alcohol consumption is a price sensitive activity. The most spectacular rise in drinking (and alcohol related cirrhosis of the liver) in the UK over the past 10 years has been among 18-30 year olds (NHS data 2008) This is directly a function of mass discounted, happy hours etc. One of the primary reasons for the price sensitivity is that the most chronic cases (the young binge drinkers) are already consuming the cheapest possible alcohol – either through maximum use of irresponsible retailing or by type of product i.e. cheap fortified wines or strong ciders).

However, there is also perhaps (evidence still emerging) a genteel ‘middle class’ alcohol-at-home problem that has maybe been quietly growing over the past decade; again due to the steady drop in the real price of alcohol - in this case the bottles of mid-range wine for consumption at home.

Just maybe the reason for the strong growing consensus for increased restrictions of all sorts on alcohol consumption among health practitioners and public policy makers at every level, has something to do with their accumulated experience, knowledge and the evidence such as the levels of alcohol- related suicides in Scotland?
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby escotregen » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:22 am

I was reluctant to enter into the my-data-versus- you nonsense, but just so that we all know the true extent of the national Scottish problem here are some of the evidential facts derived from Scottish and UK government health research:

There were 2372 alcohol-related deaths in Scotland in 2005 - the equivalent of 33 full double decker buses.

Alcohol-related deaths among women have doubled in the last decade.

1 in 6 road accident deaths in Scotland is due to drink driving - 50 people in 2002.

1 in 3 adult pedestrians killed on the roads had been drinking.

Alcohol is a factor in over half of deaths caused by fire in Scotland

1 in 10 Accident & Emergency admissions in Scotland can be attributed to alcohol.

There were 39,061 alcohol-related hospital discharges in 2005/06.

42,000 people visited their GP with an alcohol-related problem in 2003.

The UK is in the top 10 in the world for alcohol consumption per head of population.

2 in 5 men and 1 in 4 women in Scotland exceed recommended daily limits

Alcohol misuse costs Scotland around £2.25 billion per year.

Marriages where there are alcohol problems are twice as likely to end in divorce.

The 'sickies' people take because of hangovers total around 640,000 lost working days every year.


easy reference source:
http://www.alcohol-focus-scotland.org.uk/alcohol%5Finformation
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby Cyclo2000 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:39 am

I think your figures speak for themselves.

5 out of every six road related deaths DO NOT INVOLVE ALCOHOL.
9 out of ten accident and emergency admissions DO NOT INVOLVE ALCOHOL.

etc. etc.

I think there IS an element of nanny stating here in that the current criteria for what constitutes excessive drinking bears no relation to common sense and/or experience.
I enjoy a glass of wine with me tea EVERY nite...apparently I'm officially a wino because of that. It's nonsense.

The problem ain't the middle class drinking chardonay up the Wimpy estate, it's the under class drinking Buckie down the cooncil estate. The sooner we lose the political correctness from this national discussion the sooner we'll come up with some common sense answers.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby samscafeamericain » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:48 am

escotregen wrote:Samscafeamericain the problem is not one of education – if only it were that simple. There is a peculiar and deep-seated problem of culture in Scottish society. Many (most in some communities?) of our people are resistant to the messages on moderation, or at least a degree of self-care and control. Much of our so-called humour is derived from the catastrophic effects of excess drinking.You cannot educate people who are in a culture that renders them unwilling or unable to accept education and learning on such a matter.

And let’s have a wee bit of common sense here; we do not need an ‘evidence base’ or definition of what binge drinking is. Such minutia is irrelevant in the face of what is a national malaise. But just to be going on with, if you don’t understand it, when somebody just keeps going on a non-stop session of drinking alcohol until they are incapably or near-incapably drunk, and for no other reason than to do that – that’s binge drinking.

Distractions such as ‘its my life and I can drink what I want to’ or ‘it’s a matter of personal freedom’; have been long discounted as reasons for not doing good and sensible things in the interests of the community, and the individuals themselves. For example excessive speed driving, driving under the influence, driving without seat belts – all the same arguments were used ling and hard. Thankfully, the rest of us said to these folks ‘tough if you’ve got to loss a little freedom and choice, when it’s the legitimate interest of these rest of us and our families and communities that’s at risk’.

Where people do not want to learn or ‘be educated’ (just read Roxburgh’s recurrent use of abusive or dismissive language) there comes a point where the rest of us are entitled to say enough is enough.

On a final note Samscafeamericain you are completely wrong about cost and alcohol. Alcohol consumption is a price sensitive activity. The most spectacular rise in drinking (and alcohol related cirrhosis of the liver) in the UK over the past 10 years has been among 18-30 year olds (NHS data 2008) This is directly a function of mass discounted, happy hours etc. One of the primary reasons for the price sensitivity is that the most chronic cases (the young binge drinkers) are already consuming the cheapest possible alcohol – either through maximum use of irresponsible retailing or by type of product i.e. cheap fortified wines or strong ciders).

However, there is also perhaps (evidence still emerging) a genteel ‘middle class’ alcohol-at-home problem that has maybe been quietly growing over the past decade; again due to the steady drop in the real price of alcohol - in this case the bottles of mid-range wine for consumption at home.

Just maybe the reason for the strong growing consensus for increased restrictions of all sorts on alcohol consumption among health practitioners and public policy makers at every level, has something to do with their accumulated experience, knowledge and the evidence such as the levels of alcohol- related suicides in Scotland?


I have to disagree on a couple of points. You do need an evidence base that is why the education route has not worked. Based on no evidence whatsoever binge drinking was defined so ridiculously low that anything Government/Health policy people had to say after that was rubbished. And sadly, all around us there are little losses of freedoms, we are now the most closely monitored people in Western Europe, we see Government wanting to return to the days of internment by the back door with its 42 days detention for suspected terrorists, so any more erosion of civil liberties had better be based on sound supportable facts.

With regard to cost, many economic studies into this very factor have concluded that whilst wine and spirits are susceptible to price increases, beer is not. And, as you have stated, those who have drink issues will get it anyway (or take a cheaper more poisonous alternative). As for younger drinkers, they are already used to paying higher prices and it does not deter them, buy a pint in a night club and you will be lucky to get change from a £5, the drink of choice of the ned, Buckfast is a good £2 in excess of a typical Asda red wine.

In effect what you propose will not hit your target audience, instead it will punish moderate drinkers.
'once you can get men to believe in absurdities you can get them to commit atrocities' ....Voltaire
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby Lone Groover » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:10 pm

I’m not joining in the argument above – just offering a direct observation.

I moved to Glasgow from Portsmouth.

I am a Psych Nurse and at first worked in Glasgow on an agency basis – nearly all my work was in General Hospitals looking after people admitted with Alcohol related brain damage – I was staggered by the amount of Alc related admissions to the Western & the Southern Gen – not just the repeating admissions time after time, but the ones who had done such serious damage they would not be able to lead anything like a normal life afterwards. It was a real eye opener and I had previously thought myself clued into this sort of thing.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby lynnski » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:55 pm

Cyclo2000 wrote:I think your figures speak for themselves.

5 out of every six road related deaths DO NOT INVOLVE ALCOHOL.
9 out of ten accident and emergency admissions DO NOT INVOLVE ALCOHOL.

etc. etc.

I think there IS an element of nanny stating here in that the current criteria for what constitutes excessive drinking bears no relation to common sense and/or experience.
I enjoy a glass of wine with me tea EVERY nite...apparently I'm officially a wino because of that. It's nonsense.

The problem ain't the middle class drinking chardonay up the Wimpy estate, it's the under class drinking Buckie down the cooncil estate. The sooner we lose the political correctness from this national discussion the sooner we'll come up with some common sense answers.


The 'middle class drinking chardonay up the Wimpy estate' are just as likely to be binge drinkers as 'the under class drinking Buckie down the cooncil estate'. There is no political correctness in alcohol abuse. Having A glass of wine every night would not be considered binge drinking, but having 4-5 or more every night would.

"There are many different definitions of binge drinking, and they tend to be a bit vague. A recent government report describes binge drinking as 'the consumption of excessive amounts of alcohol within a limited time period', which can mean different things to different people. Another commonly used definition is 'the consumption of twice the daily benchmark given in the Government's guidelines'. This equates to six to eight units for men and four to six units for women in one sitting."

http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/dr ... gedrinking
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby Lone Groover » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:55 am

Can Y'all be a bit quiet today - my heads bangin' :oops:
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby samscafeamericain » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:57 am

lynnski wrote:
Cyclo2000 wrote:I think your figures speak for themselves.

5 out of every six road related deaths DO NOT INVOLVE ALCOHOL.
9 out of ten accident and emergency admissions DO NOT INVOLVE ALCOHOL.

etc. etc.

I think there IS an element of nanny stating here in that the current criteria for what constitutes excessive drinking bears no relation to common sense and/or experience.
I enjoy a glass of wine with me tea EVERY nite...apparently I'm officially a wino because of that. It's nonsense.

The problem ain't the middle class drinking chardonay up the Wimpy estate, it's the under class drinking Buckie down the cooncil estate. The sooner we lose the political correctness from this national discussion the sooner we'll come up with some common sense answers.


The 'middle class drinking chardonay up the Wimpy estate' are just as likely to be binge drinkers as 'the under class drinking Buckie down the cooncil estate'. There is no political correctness in alcohol abuse. Having A glass of wine every night would not be considered binge drinking, but having 4-5 or more every night would.

"There are many different definitions of binge drinking, and they tend to be a bit vague. A recent government report describes binge drinking as 'the consumption of excessive amounts of alcohol within a limited time period', which can mean different things to different people. Another commonly used definition is 'the consumption of twice the daily benchmark given in the Government's guidelines'. This equates to six to eight units for men and four to six units for women in one sitting."

http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/dr ... gedrinking


okay I will just whisper this.

3 pints is not binge drinking, a litre bottle of wine shared between two adults is not binge drinking. Don't you see that is the problem? We use a basis for eductation that is ridiculed.
'once you can get men to believe in absurdities you can get them to commit atrocities' ....Voltaire
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby onyirtodd » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:20 am

samscafeamericain wrote:
okay I will just whisper this.

3 pints is not binge drinking, a litre bottle of wine shared between two adults is not binge drinking. Don't you see that is the problem? We use a basis for eductation that is ridiculed.


The problem with the pejorative term 'binge drinking' is that, standing alone, it has little or no relevance.

3 pints on a Friday or a Saturday night (or even both) isn't binge drinking. 3 pints every night of the week still wouldn't meet the common definition of 'binge' drinking but the health damage would still be being done. 3 pints of IPA at 3.8% is completely different from 3 pints of Chip Blooterberg at well over 5% (5.3%?).

Alcohol advisors recommend no more than 21 units/ week (for men) ideally spread out over no more than 5 days and that the 2 'clear' days ought not be consecutive.
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Re: Binge Drinking

Postby samscafeamericain » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:32 am

onyirtodd wrote:
samscafeamericain wrote:
okay I will just whisper this.

3 pints is not binge drinking, a litre bottle of wine shared between two adults is not binge drinking. Don't you see that is the problem? We use a basis for eductation that is ridiculed.


The problem with the pejorative term 'binge drinking' is that, standing alone, it has little or no relevance.

3 pints on a Friday or a Saturday night (or even both) isn't binge drinking. 3 pints every night of the week still wouldn't meet the common definition of 'binge' drinking but the health damage would still be being done. 3 pints of IPA at 3.8% is completely different from 3 pints of Chip Blooterberg at well over 5% (5.3%?).

Alcohol advisors recommend no more than 21 units/ week (for men) ideally spread out over no more than 5 days and that the 2 'clear' days ought not be consecutive.


Onyir, the problem is there is no medical basis for the 21 units, none at all. It was a number dreamed up by a policy advisor, not by health professionals.
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