The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby purplepantman » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:37 am

Knightmare wrote:Is it possible...... and this is a long shot, but is it possible that the stone along with lots of others was quarried, loaded onto train wagons and intended for the buidling of the Wallace Monument in Stirling? The monument was built in the 1860's so its intirely feasible that the stones and building materials for the monument came from far and wide.


Impossible - everyone knows the Wallace Monument is made of paper mache! :D

I’ve been thinking about your Wallace Stone these past few days and I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

Now a hundred years ago, roughly the time this book was written, location was very important.
Words and descriptions even more so. People would have been very precise with regards location and place names etc. Maps were obviously available but few people would have had them. Therefore if someone said a place-name (Riggend in this case) then that's where they meant.

Now I know this area very well. I travel through Riggend every day on my way to and from work.
I’ve also been up and down your Brackenhirst Road many times for many reasons. :P

This Wallace Stone is not in or at Riggend. Riggend is a very small place, so if you kidnapped a Riggender (?) and drove them a mile or so west along that road (to the stone), they would definitely say they were no longer in Riggend. I would not suggest doing this experiment, just take my word for it. They’d say they were in Brackenhurst or Drumbowie.

To clarify, if this is the stone which Knox in his book wanted to refer to, he'd have said Wallace Stone at Brackenhurst or Drumbowie. The AA Battery directly across the road is known officialy as being at Drumbowie, even Glenmavis - never Riggend.

The Wallace Stone may indeed exist BUT....

If that stone is it, it's been moved to that position from Riggend at some point. Why? Seems unlikely.

or

That stone is a red herring and the real one is still “in situ” and forgotten about - at Riggend.

or

The stone you refer to could just be some kind of oddity and the story’s been built up round about it through the years, although I do not doubt Mel Gibson erm I mean William Wallace passed through the area as described on his way to Falkirk.

I'm not doubting your Wallace Stone exists but it's the fact it's simply not in Riggend that doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure Wallace must have sharpened his sword many times and if legend has it he did it using a big stone at Riggend then fine but we're not in Riggend as this (1904) map shows;

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Has someone, years ago, simply read the book and went looking for a stone and found this one thinking that it fits the bill. Airdrie is not a huge place and probably a bit boring when this book was published in the 20’s. I’d imagine this story created a little bit of excitement and perhaps some of the locals went looking and found this stone and before you know it we are where we are now.

I've also heard this story has two documented sources. Knox's book is one but I think it is imperative you find the other. I’ve spent much time on line going through “Google Books” and stuff but can only find the reference in your “Airdrie – A Historical Sketch”.
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Sharon » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:01 am

However, it's also true that when you describe where somewhere is to a wider audience who don't or may not know the area well, that you go with the most likely to be known place name, and from the map Riggend looks like the bigger and more likely to be known place.

For example, I am a country girl and when saying where im from, i describe it in different ways. To locals would always just give the farm name and expet it to be know, to people in the region I'd give the village name, crocketford, from slightly wider afield I'd try people with "castle douglas" half expecting a blank response, then upgrade that to dumfries, or galloway (still both often meeting a blank look) and so it goes on. So the choice of riggend as the location, may be because it is the place more likely to be meaningful to the audience.
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby toomse » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:47 pm

I’ve had a right good scour around all the areas quoted here on the archive OS maps I have available but can find no reference to the stone. These maps are very accurate and would list any structure of historical interest regardless of how minor.
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there’s loads of these mineral railways recorded all over the place in this area
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby toomse » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:58 pm

Just looking at the last map you posted PPM. With Cleddans just directly west of Riggend perhaps that awkward farmer’s got the stone stashed in his secret tunnel. :)
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Knightmare » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:19 pm

toomse wrote:Just looking at the last map you posted PPM. With Cleddans just directly west of Riggend perhaps that awkward farmer’s got the stone stashed in his secret tunnel. :)


Awkward Farmer's stashing stones in his secret tunnel....please keep my thread clean thank you! :D
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby purplepantman » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:14 pm

toomse wrote:Just looking at the last map you posted PPM. With Cleddans just directly west of Riggend perhaps that awkward farmer’s got the stone stashed in his secret tunnel. :)


Yes, along with Shergar, The Ark of the Covenant and The Fallen Madonna With The Big BOObies!
The way he acted that day I went up, I'm sure he's hiding something up there.
Perhaps he just knows a really good recipe for tablet and he just ain't sharing wi' nobody?! :D
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Icecube » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:39 pm

I think Sharon's post is on the mark with regard to country miles and describing where little known places are. James Knox may well have described its location as Riggend because the stone is situated beside the road from Brackenhirst to Riggend. The former was a farm, wheras the latter a hamlet on a main road and it would make sense to name a wider known placename as Sharon has suggested.
As another example of this are mining reports of the 19th. and 20th. centuries used to group coal mines and name their location as the nearest village or town - I think the rule was that they had to be given a postal address no matter how far from it they were.

I first read about this stone in David Ross's book 'In the Footsteps of Wallace' and he obviously took his information straight from the Knox book.
Last edited by Icecube on Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Its_a_gamp » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:51 pm

I have a theory (and its just a theory) but at Rigend (sic) in 1864 there was a milestone marking the road from crlisle to stirling. Milestones were first used by the romans then reintroduced C1600. I know this is 300 years after Wallace, but, If there was a largish stone already in place when they were marking they would have carved this it rather than bring a stone. Has anyone seen the Riggend milestone that could tell if its large and uneven rather than purpose cut.(IYKWIM)

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Due to cutbacks, the light at the end of the tunnel is off until further notice!
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Knightmare » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:45 pm

Its_a_gamp wrote:I have a theory (and its just a theory) but at Rigend (sic) in 1864 there was a milestone marking the road from crlisle to stirling. Milestones were first used by the romans then reintroduced C1600. I know this is 300 years after Wallace, but, If there was a largish stone already in place when they were marking they would have carved this it rather than bring a stone. Has anyone seen the Riggend milestone that could tell if its large and uneven rather than purpose cut.(IYKWIM)

Image


Good theory, except if the mile stone did exist, its not there any more. Bing shows nothing at all in that position, however if the stone sat near the edge of the original track (as it would have been then) it would have been moved when track was turned into a road....i would expect. I'm researching something at the moment and shall return!! :idea:
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Icecube » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:14 pm

William Forrest on his very detailed 1816 maps usually marked these with 'M.Stone' - he didn't mark one at Riggend [the spelling doesn't matter] and in fact he didn't delineate the road there as being a turnpike road at that time.
However there is a milestone on the 1859 Ordnance Survey located just north [Stirling 16; Carlisle 94] of the hamlet.
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby purplepantman » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:27 pm

There's a milestone marked on the map Toomse posted.
Not sure what date this map is though. Toomse?...

I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm passing and see whats there.
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Icecube » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:52 pm

purplepantman wrote:
I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm passing and see whats there.



Don't slow doon without checking your mirror - damn fast speeds at that point PPM. What a pity google street view hasn't reached Riggend yet ::):
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby purplepantman » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:57 pm

Icecube wrote:Don't slow doon without checking your mirror - damn fast speeds at that point PPM.


Yes, that is a very scary bit of road!
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby Icecube » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:04 pm

purplepantman wrote:There's a milestone marked on the map Toomse posted.



Yip just had another look and its there [MS] in exactly the same spot as on the 1859 survey but I think as Knightmare suggested it could have disappeared when the road was widened. But never say never as they say.
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Re: The Wallace Stone (Riggend)

Postby purplepantman » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:40 pm

purplepantman wrote:I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm passing and see whats there.


Well I drove past where the milestone is marked on the map, both directions, twice in fact and slowly both times and I COULD NOT see a milestone. The grass verges are quite overgrown at the moment but I'm 90% sure there's not one there.
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