Possible Nuclear Bunker?

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Postby crusty_bint » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:31 pm

From what I've been told, the tunnel led from Dial House to a bunker in George Sq, although I never thought it might be under, or accessable from, the old GPO building there.

KMas... fancy a wander round ur basement???

Does anyone know where I can find a topograghic map of the city centre? Iv been trying to map the possible arrangements for this tunnel using the info we've collated here and realised that the underlying geology would be a factor.

Also, James, you know about the trainlines... are there any maps or diagrams that show where these permeate the city centre and at what depths????
Last edited by crusty_bint on Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DVF » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:16 pm

An OS map will have the info you need crusty. The orange ones, I think they're called Rangefinder, (NOT Pathfinder), WH Smith has 'em.

You got me thinking. The GPO building is about the same level as Dial House, probably lower, giving extra reason for the 5 basement levels at Dial House, but the little building is much higher up, the lift in that little building must go down 10 storeys or so, to reach basement height at George Square. If the tunnel goes to the Royal then that would need a long lift shaft too. (This is just from general observation, not checked).

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Postby Sharon » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:22 pm

Mapwise the orange OS maps are 1: 25 000 and known as explorer maps. Generally they are all you need, but givent he sheer amount of information on the sheet for the city centre the contour lines are nigh on impossible to follow! (i'm looking and impossible - for me at least!!!)

Of course it must be possible to get up-to-date higher res OS maps of the city centre, without it just turning into a street map, that still has the contour lines??? suggestions???
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Postby crusty_bint » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:16 am

Went and got the OS map... sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh theres a lot on it!!!! Am toiling away tho.

I have noticed that the tunnel from Dial house to the shaft in North Hanover St does lend itself to the lower (sedimentary rock) portions of the Blythswood (igneous) drumlin. This would cut down the costs of excavating the tunnel.

Thats the furthest Iv got tho... got a migrane now... print too small
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby eddieglasgow » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:37 pm

Sorry to bring old topics back from the dead, however I can add some more dirt to this conspiracy theory :)

My grandfather actually worked on the access block on N Hanover street as it was being constructed and also within the "NETWORK" of tunnels beneath. He was a welder.

According to him the block on N Hanover was an access elevator, that took you doen several storeys, he can't remember how deep exactly. It was connected to the dial house and GPO as you all have stated, however he claims that the tunnels went much farther than that. There were link tunnels that joined each other and formed part of a network on different levels. One tunnel was bored all the way under the catherdral street/ university areas and stopped at the Royal Infirmary, this was supposed to be a service tunnel. Another tunnel was bored all the way accross and down to Pitt Street telephone exchange.

Now the MOD have alwas said that there are six nuclear protected telephone exchanges in the UK, but have never revealed which ones, although Glasgow really is a possible candidate, and the linking of it with this tunnel network gives strength to a nuclear bunker theory. Then take into account the service tunnel from the hospital. Firstly medical supplies would spring to mind, however, the hospital is served with massive generators in case of power failure, and those could be linked into the service tunnel to provide power for something in the event of nuclear fallout.

It's all just hear say? perhaps. However this is the icing on the cake. My grandfather worked on these tunnels for many years, and was paid extremley well for it. While boring part of the tunnels under Dundas Street (next to Queen St. Station) ALL the workers were paid off and sent home. The MOD took over the contract and completed the works.

Suspicious? oh yes. If it came from anybody else I would have dismisses it as rubbish, however, I find it hard to believe that my grandfather made it all up. There IS something under dundas street/ queen street, but I guess we will never really know the truth.
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby escotregen » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:52 pm

I don’t want to be a party pooper but I’m not convinced by most of the various ‘nuclear bunker’ sites in Glasgow that have been touted about over the years.

The overwhelming reason is that planners would be very, very, unlikely to ever place a nuclear bunker anywhere in the central area of Glasgow. The cost of such an undertaking (assuming it was to be truly bomb-proof and post-attack sustainable) would be prohibitative, even for the resources of the state and in a time of paranoia – there were other pressing priorities in the farce that passed for nuclear war survival planning.

Planners were also all too aware that Glasgow was anyway a top priority target for the USSR throughout the Cold War (in an earlier thread I cited newly released NATO papers on that). This probably rendered the planners' view of survivability in the area as virtually impossible. The planners, despite propaganda to the public, would not have wanted to heavily invest in such a low survivability area.

In this respect it is instructive to note that, in the event of an imminent nuclear attack, the Secretary of State for Scotland (and designated wartime regional commander) was to be removed to remote bunker facilities in Fife – there was certainly no intention of trying to provide survivable facilities for him and his staff even in the Scottish capital city.

Similarly, the planners’ arrangement for a survivable telephone system would not have depended on such a high priority target like Glasgow.

There are many other incidental bits of evidence that the planners’ view was "you will be a nuclear first-strike goner for sure Glasgow". For example, the equipped ROC observation points were all, so far as I know, located well outside of Glasgow. Then there was the Establishment's view of Glasgow as always politically 'dodgy' and that probably mitigated against banking on it in the run-up to an attack and in a post-nuclear survivability scenario.

The facilities that were put in place were sometimes hang-overs from WW2 that were ‘kept on’ by an amateurish Civil Defence Corps, or incidental and poorly resourced facilities (often local authority efforts) that were mostly intended for propaganda purposes to re-assure and pacify the public whilst cultivating the atmoshpere of paranioa in support of the farcical concept of retaining an credible ‘independent’ UK nuclear strike force.
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby dougie79 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:32 pm

I know that when my dad took me down on the lift in that little building beside queen street that it went down for a good little while, may have been a slow lift. The level we got off at must have been approx queen street high level. The lift did go down another level after that but we were not permitted and required a key to operate the lift for that level. It must have gone down to basment level at george square as I could see down through the gaps and the bottom light seemed very far away. As for a nuclear element much of the equipment down there is EMP proof everything is valves and heavy copper cabling it is still used. The MOD run alot of their war time comms cabling through these tunnels. It would make sence that there is some sort of emergency control room that most local authorities have in case of such an event. Being under george square or under the city chambers would also make sence. I can only get limited information from my father as it is a rather sensitive subject. There are tunnels down there that not even my dad is allowd into and he is a manger for BT. Ill need to get him out once again and ply him with some drink and get the info flowing.
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby Dexter St. Clair » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:14 pm

In "Beneath the City Streets" Peter Laurie suggested scenarios similar to the above.

I'm sure it was no coincidence that SRC regional HQ was located near to Strathclyde Police HQ and in between two major rail tunnels the BT exchange where they tapped the phones and a motorway . Plenty of cover there for building secret basements
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby escotregen » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:58 pm

Dougie I would suggest the use of valves and copper cabling was not because of any nuclear bunker building programme – rather it was the technology used at the time. The need for reverting to valves only became apparent once transistors were used extensively in public communications and well after the building of most of the bunkers the UK did construct.

I have no doubt that extensive tunnels, many at deep level, do exist around Glasgow. Previous threads have often covered many of these. However, the depth and extent of the destruction that would hit Glasgow in the event of a nuclear strike would be so immense as to render all of these tunnels as useless for survivability. Certainly, any tunnel that was useable for transport between buildings under the likes of George Square would be nowhere near the underground depth required to withstand nuclear hostilities.

At best they might offer some immediate protection from blast, but radiation, and wholesale collapse of sewerage, gas and water systems would inundate the whole central Glasgow conurbation. The area around George Square would very probably quickly succumb to the floodwater from the nearby Clyde as the existing water and drainage management system collapsed – you wouldn’t want to be caught in any tunnel in amongst all that.

Building bunkers under the City Chambers would not really make sense; again I think it is important to take account of the intensity and extent of the nuclear destruction – it would be pretty crazy to build a bunker where it is most likely to find an incinerated and pulverized City Chambers collapsing in on it.

An ‘emergency room’ for councils to use would of course be very likely possible, and I did refer to amateurish facilities often being set up by local authorities. But these were not nuclear bunkers in the sense of surviving war. As I said, they were more to do with propaganda to reassure the public. The possible scenario of grouping the SCR and police HQs is one such possibility; but there again it would be suicidal planning to have these centres closely linked if nuclear survivability was being contemplated. I can't really see that the construction of such major government institutions would provide any cover or secrecy for the construction of tunnels... in fact it's all the more likely that such constructions would pinpoint the location as a priority fro enemy targeting purposes.

Tunnels existed in a major industrial and commercial centre like Glasgow for all sorts of conventional uses – and the supposed secrecy and restricted access was/is more to do with commercial confidentiality, ‘conventional’ anti-terrorism security (for examplethe IRA was a threat from the 1920s in Glasgow) and plain old health & safety as anything to do with any great nuclear war secrets.
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby HollowHorn » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:54 pm

Another excellent post..........But then you may just want us to think that 8O

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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby escotregen » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:39 am

Well, you may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment :wink: but if my postings help maintain civilian morale in the face of a nuclear strike so be it 8)
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby Buzby » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:33 pm

Hadn't noticed this thread until recently.

The other contributions concerning it as a tunnel complex (as opposed to a 'Bunker') are here;

http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=69&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=240#p146292
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby JayKay » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:59 pm

the equipped ROC observation points were all, so far as I know, located well outside of Glasgow.

Strangely, Glasgow did/does have an ROC post within the city, despite these being located almost exclusively in rural locations.

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/cgi-bin/webdata_roc.pl?fid=989428021&query=pagenum%3D1%26cgifunction%3DSearch%26County%3DLanarkshire&cgifunction=form
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby dougie79 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:55 pm

awww! then we are all doomed, doomed I tell ye! I can tell you though the old valve equipment is there for back up and ready to be used at a minutes notice. It wasnt installed until the early 80's well into the microchip age. Lets just hope that they never ever have to use it in a real situation. 8O
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Re: Possible Nuclear Bunker?

Postby dougie79 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:39 pm

Found this website all about surviving an atomic war, its quite intersting and shows advice and information given out by the UK government in the 80's.

http://www.cybertrn.demon.co.uk/atomic/
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