St Andrew's Square

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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby HollowHorn » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:59 pm

ninatoo wrote:I am glad that my original query has ended up creating some interest in the area, and also some remarkable photos and links...thanks to all of you for that!

Nina, sometimes folk just need a catalyst, thanks to you too.

ninatoo wrote:I finally found the place on the Valuation rolls...it is listed as St Andrew Square. I found it in the end by just typing sq. Number 23 was a lodging house apparently, yet my family members stayed there for at least ten years.

More detailed info please, keep digging. :wink:
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby ninatoo » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:15 am

Is there more to learn about 23 St Andrews Square hollowhorn? Or do you want more info on my family? They were dock workers while living there.

Nina
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby Fossil » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:23 am

ninatoo wrote:Is there more to learn about 23 St Andrews Square hollowhorn? Or do you want more info on my family? They were dock workers while living there.

Nina


There was an orphanage at the corner of The Square. Also just behind St Andrews sq on London road there was a Salvation Army "doss house" now gone.
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby ninatoo » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:50 am

Hi fossil,

It seems there was a lot going on in the square then! Well, my folk were not in the oprhanage; in fact there were three generations of them at number 23 from 1916 to 1924, and I was hoping to get them on the Valuation rolls too, but they weren't there. The surnames I was looking for are Logan and Carroll. I had actually tried to trace them to being in St Andrew's Square for a specific reason, but I have gotten sidetracked with all this remarkable information, and I can't recall what the original reason was now! ::):

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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby ninatoo » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:03 pm

Did crusty get back yet? Curious to see what he says.

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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby Fossil » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:02 am

ninatoo wrote:Did crusty get back yet? Curious to see what he says.

Nina


I forgot. hes On Holiday
Here's a shot from last night looking on to the back of the Church.
Image

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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby HollowHorn » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:27 pm

ninatoo wrote:Is there more to learn about 23 St Andrews Square hollowhorn? Or do you want more info on my family? They were dock workers while living there.

Give us everything you have re No.23 & your relatives.
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby HollowHorn » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:37 pm

Ah, Nina, the strangest & saddest discovery. To-day was such a perfect one, perhaps the last true day of Summer, I threw my gear in the car & sped east. I'll post some pics in a directional 'walk round the square order' order & will give you bad news when I reach the relevant ones:

If you were facing onto the front of the Church, this building would form the beginning of the left hand side of the square Looking north)
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Moving on from here we see the complete left hand side & the beginning of the rear section (behind the church) You're relatives lived just out of shot to the right;
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This is the view a bit further to the right (facing north) You're folk's house is located at the part facing onto the rear of the church:
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Looking back from the far end of the previous pic, this is the view to the west:
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Looking up, we see the north side of the church complete with steeple
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A turn to the left now & this is the view to the south leg of the square, you're relatives were located around the centre of the row to the left (east)
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This is the view your folks would have encountered as they left for the docks of a morning:
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Directly behind you is the spot that they would be looking from:
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A more distant view:
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And now we get to the spooky bit..The door to the left is No.22, the door to the right is No.24 8O
What happened to No.23! No idea, it just plumb ain't there. I walked back around the whole square, it does not exist.
Now remember what has been said before, that the row to the rear of the church (which should incorporate 23) is a new build. It is possible that the house numbers have been moved from their original positions (this would still not explain the missing No.23), it is also possible that you're folks front door was on the other side of the above building, ie, we are looking at the rear wall, is it possible that the odd No's so existed & the even No's faced the square,
Why though on the rebuild, miss out No.23? The other option would be that the north enclosure of the square never existed at all until the new build, if so, were the the hell was the original location of No.23? Crusty, are you still a-roaming?

Here is a detail of the window section from the viewpoint of No's 22/24, I cannot at this time state that this stained glass is an original feature.
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Further to the left (south) of No's 22/24 this would be the view:
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A tad further to the left:
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Looking back from this position we can see to No’s 22/24:
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Turning around again we see the last building on the southern end of the square (to the right from the front of the church, obviously it was once a Tannery:
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Some details of the above building:
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I'll deal next with the front of the church and the details contained therein, I will also include the views to the west & the changes that have taken place there too.
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby ninatoo » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:49 am

Firstly Hollowhorn, I want to thank you so MUCH for going to all the trouble you have gone to! You have done exactly what I would have done if I could be there…it is so great to see all the photos. It is just like I am able to stand there and be surrounded by the past! What an amazing place it must have been to live. I can imagine it all busy and bustling with people. It looks gorgeous now, although I know it has been refurbished. I can look at the pictures and really get an idea of what surrounded my family.

No number 23? Goodness that is a mystery! It was definitely there on my documents; the family were very consistent with the number, as sometimes the house numbers do seem to change on the documents, but not in this case. What a shame it seems to have disappeared, but you might be right and it could have faced outwards at the back of the square. I really hope we can discover what happened to number 23!

Anyway, here is the list of who lived there and what years to the best of my knowledge. You might see that I was out in my estimation of time span – I somehow missed that they were still there in 1932. So, here goes:

William McCormack, slater, my great great grandfather who died there in 1924 and his sister Catherine McCormack, who died there in 1932. Also his daughter Ellen and her husband (carter and a furniture dealer) lived there in 1920 when Ellen died.

My great grandfather John Logan, dock labourer, who lived there from 1916 to at least 1924, and his wife Margaret McCormack (daughter of above William) who lived there between 1920 and 1924. they had two children (one was my granny) and both were probably born there.

John’s mother (my great great grandmother) Margaret O’Brien Logan Carroll (2nd marriage) was there in between 1916 and 1929 and her husband John, a dock labourer and likely two more children. When the daughter married in 1929 they were at 23a St Andrew’s Square and her new husband was at 28 St Andrew’s square. He was a Tinsmith.

There is a reference which I just found that they were living in Provanhill Street in 1909 when one of the Logan girls married unless she had moved away from home.

So I can say for sure that my family had strong connections with the address from at least 1916 until at least 1932. I believe they were all in Springburn by 1941 when my mother was born. A long stretch of years, considering they had moved so much before then, and as you can see it seemed to be the home of their rather extended family. I can count 12 people….that’s a lot at one address, but I suppose some could have been in different flats; two up or down, etc. so maybe they occupied three houses, allowing for family groups. I do know that Glasgow flats tended to be overcrowded with extended family however. My own mother was brought up in a two bedroom house with her three siblings, parents, grandparents and one aunt and uncle!

Whew…! :D

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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby onyirtodd » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:12 am

HollowHorn wrote:.....................
Some details of the above building:
Image

............................


Maybe the building only cost sixpence






or is that just a load of old bull?


Great pics HH.
238 to 127. All in all a good afternoon's work
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby Doorstop » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:59 pm

That was a fantastic post HH.

Some man.
I like him ... He says "Okie Dokie!"
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby HollowHorn » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:05 pm

Here are another couple of crops from the 1968 aerial photos:
In this one, which unfortunately ends at the beginning of the church, notice the unusual looking building to the rear, I would say the right hand side of this building & perhaps extending into the lane would be approximate location of No.23 (if the old street numbering pattern conforms to the modern day new build. You can also see the 'Tannery' building at top right.
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This one shows the approx opposite view, No.23 would be the building directly behind the church:
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Some detail from the front of the church, it has been stunningly restored:
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A view of the ‘Tannery’ building from the front door of the church, note the letters carved into the floor, I’ll post enlarged versions in the next post.

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To the right of the ‘Tannery’ can be seen the old Central Police Office which now houses the ‘Glasgow Police Museum’ http://gphs1800.tripod.com/ It is located at No.68 St. Andrews Square, which is confusing as it is mainly on Turnbull St, which was previously known as Low Green St. :?
Here is a shot into the yard, I imagine that at one time these may have been stables for horses, just a guess though:
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Looking down St. Andrews Street opposite the front door of the church:
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The building to the right which is in the process of construction seen here in greater detail, replaces an earlier building,
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seen here:
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This is the rear of the restored 'Tannery' building:
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Here is a view to the rear of the Square, No. 23 would have stood directly under the steeple:
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A closer view of the rear of the Sq. No.23 would have stood approx where the middle of the three stairwells(?) now stands.
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And to finish, a view of the rear of the north side of the Sq:
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Please remember that since page one, a fair amount of my posts have been based on conjecture, guesswork & a vivid imagination. I stand happy to be corrected on any of the above, at least until I can get back up to the Mitchell Library ::):
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby Merlot » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:46 pm

Nina,

Here is the link for the valuation roll for St Andrew Square.



http://www.theglasgowstory.co.uk/imagev ... =TGSV02243

Cheers,

Merlot

Edit: 2 mins later realised you'd already found it :)
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby HollowHorn » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:05 pm

I was looking at you're photo again, Lexi:
Image
I was trying to make out what the sign said Hoping it Said 'Royal Bank Limited' there was one there as can be seen in the below map from 1832 that I posted earlier, it looks more to me like 'Picture' something something' Do you have a date for you're photo? It looks like early 1900's to me.:
Image
Anyway, whilst perusing it I noticed the opening to the right of the sign, it struck me that this was not an entrance to a close because all the other entrances appeared to be 'doored'. I wondered if this was what is known in Glasgow as a 'Pend' An open through way from one side of a building to the other. Back to the maps & I found this one from 1892/4, the 'Pend' can be clearly seen marked by an elongated cross, other 'Pends' can also be seen:
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Note also that Murdoch's School (Endowed) is located to the right of the 'Pend' on the other side of you're 'Bank / Picture' sign, it would appear to incorporate or be very near to No.23. I have found scant information on this School so far:
Murdoch's schools, in St Andrews Square, give instruction in reading, writing, and arithmetic, and have about 500 pupils.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/t ... ry338.html


Looking at another map, this one dated 1858/8 I noticed a 'pend' dividing the 'Tannery' Building from the rest of the square, I also noticed a large rectangular building behind the 'Tannery' which does not now exist. The street to the left of the 'L' in 'Low Green St.' is 'Steel St.' which does still exist.
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Searching the Virtual Mitchell, I came across this photo from 1868, looking up to the 'Tannery' building from the south. The street to the left is "Steel St". The now demolished building to the rear of the 'Tanney' can be clearly seen, and indeed the 'Pend' itself is also in plain view to the right of it. Nearly fell off me chair!: 8O
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Onto a map from 1892/4, the 'Tannery Pend' & the rectangular building to the rear have now vanished. Note that two 'Tobacco & Snuff Manufactories' are now located at in the square.
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Some info on the 'Tannery' building:
Tannery Buildings, Nos 46-8 St Andrew's Square, Glasgow
This building was constructed in 1876-7 for John Inglis & Co, leather factors, replacing part of the late 18th-century terraces surrounding the square. The rear elevation of the warehouse was built of red and white brick while the new frontage was of ashlar, to blend in with the surviving terraces in the square.

1968
Image
This shows the building from the north-west. The arch of the pend on the left has a keystone in the form of a bull's head. The pend gave access to a courtyard, and a hoist was provided at the rear for handling goods. In 1968 it appears to have been used as police offices.
Most of the buildings in the square were demolished from the 1970s, and have been replaced by modern flats. This building has been converted into flats, with little effect on its appearance.


Here is the north end of the square in 1892/4 again:
Image
Note the 'City Orphan Home' Some details below from Glimpses of Old Glasgow
JAMES MORRISON STREET is a new street opened up to St. Andrew's Square. It contains the City Orphan Home, under the superintendence of the devoted Mr. William Quarrier, where the temporal and spiritual interests of orphans or fatherless children are attended to. The home also serves as a house of shelter for lads, and is a place where a rescuing and helping hand is held out to young women likely to be led astray.


And of general interest from the same source:
Another agency I would refer to is the Glasgow Evangelistic Association, whose hall enters from Low Green Street on south side of the Square. It aims at providing religious instruction for the lapsed masses, whether old or young. It is also "a house of bread" to the hungry. As the result of religious awakening it has had for many years a free breakfast table on Sabbath mornings for the poor and outcast. In the large hall entry by Steel Street, there is a religious service every Sabbath afternoon for youths, at the close of which the young folk get a good dinner. The attendance is from 800 to 900. Here the kind-hearted and unwearied Mr. MacKeith labours, supported by a large staff of faithful co-workers.


To round off this bit, another snippet of info on the square:
The Glasgow Maternity or Lying-in Hospital was established in 1835, and stood originally in St Andrews Square, but was subsequently removed to the corner of North Portland Street and Rottenrow
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/towns/t ... ry338.html


Jings, it was a busy wee place ::):

ps...Cheers for the 'Valuation Rolls' link, Merlot.
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Re: St Andrew's Square

Postby elgee » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:44 pm

Merlot`s valuation role mentioned a picture framer at that address. Hanging his shingle ? Also what did "lodging house " Mean then ? Was it similiar to multi occupancy means for private landlords these days ? just a thought.
Terrific photos and knowledge btw. I have a friend of a relative who bought to let in that square. I will AMAZE them next time I go for dinner.
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