Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Dugald » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:29 am

Socceroo wrote:Dugald

What is your problem with indiscriminate and wanton and you seemingly wishing to redefine their meaning?


The essential idea in this discussion is that the bombing of the residential area in Clydebank was not indiscriminate and wanton bombing. To my way of thinking, there is a helluva difference between saying "The Luftwaffe bombed Clydebank indiscriminately and wantonly", as opposed to simply saying " The Luftwaffe bombed Clydebank". The first suggests a level of barbarism, the second suggests an act of war... a big, big difference, especially to your European brethren, the Germans.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby HollowHorn » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:52 pm

Indiscriminate:
not discriminating; lacking in care, judgment, selectivity


Wanton:
without regard for what is right, just, humane, etc


Hmmmmm, sounds like the Clydebank blitz. :roll:
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby samscafeamericain » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:03 am

Was reading an interesting website, saw this and thought of this discussion.

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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby escotregen » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:12 pm

Dugald you're going around in ever diminishing semantic circles :) You said:

"The Luftwaffe bombed Clydebank indiscriminately and wantonly", as opposed to simply saying " The Luftwaffe bombed Clydebank". The first suggests a level of barbarism, the second suggests an act of war... a big, big difference


Dugald, there is no 'big, big difference', in fact there is no difference. If 'The Luftwaffe bombed Clydebank' then that is an act of barbarism.

And can I say that I think there is something whiffy about your gratuitous use of the term "your European brethren, the Germans". Better that you drop it - it hardly lends dignity or gravitas to whatever general point your are presumably making.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Josef » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:25 pm

escotregen wrote:And can I say that I think there is something whiffy about your gratuitous use of the term "your European brethren, the Germans". Better that you drop it - it hardly lends dignity or gravitas to whatever general point your are presumably making.


Indeed.

Given that it's in context, how about 'Our NATO brethern, the Germans", Dugald?
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Dugald » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:58 pm

Josef wrote:
escotregen wrote:And can I say that I think there is something whiffy about your gratuitous use of the term "your European brethren, the Germans". Better that you drop it - it hardly lends dignity or gravitas to whatever general point your are presumably making.


Indeed.

Given that it's in context, how about 'Our NATO brethern, the Germans", Dugald?


Fine suggestion Josef, I'd have no objections at all to 'Our NATO brethern, the Germans". Whether the brethern are thought of as NATO brethern, or European bretheren, changes not a whiff, my attempt to ensure the Germans are properly varnished.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby escotregen » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:38 am

Whiffy indeed Dugald. You have maybe missing another point above :) … but meantime, I’m sure you appreciate that it is your term ‘brethren’ that is gratuitous. Interesting, your other expression; ‘ensure that the Germans are properly varnished’. It’s at the very least also ambiguous and open to all sorts of interpretations. Myself, I prefer honest plain speaking.

I also prefer ‘unvarnished’ and humane reading of history. For example how the ‘Germans’ were the first victims of the Nazis in terms of state murder and theft, indoctrination and conscription of their children and ultimately, for many, degradation and vilification throughout the world. For example, Nazi courts and hearings executed an estimated 50,000 to 60,000 German citizens. Ultimately, except probably for the blood sacrifice of the USSR, the ordinary Germans also paid one of the highest prices in terms of proportion of war-related deaths by the end of WW2.

When thinking of Germans in WW2, I recurrently think of the incredibly brave martyr Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer who, as a well placed individual from a privileged background could have done well out of the Nazi regime. Instead he championed resistance, was horribly tortured and then hung on a meat hook.

I just cannot see how one speaks of ‘ensuring’ that such people are ‘properly varnished’ – distasteful to say the least.

Off thread topic? No, because the direction of some discussion here is why we need to look straight in the eye at the likes of the Clydebank and Glasgow bombing experiences. They still tell us much about people’s unknowing prejudices, and the ever-present danger of moral self-righteous and fanatism being exploited by the powerful so that they can manipulate ordinary decent people in bombing other ordinary decent people. I would rather spend my efforts in my own little way to ‘ensure’ that ordinary decent people are reminded of these things, and I find that the reality of the Clydebank and Glasgow bombings are one way of doing that.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Dexter St. Clair » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:17 pm

Stop judging people according to current morals. His use of brethern or unvarnished Germans is preferable to references to huns.

If this was your reading material you might write in a similar fashion.

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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Dugald » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:20 pm

Well Escotregen, I really don't know why my term "brethern" is gratuitous ( unnecessary or unwarranted---had to look that one up in my wee Collins), I used it only, quite innocently, as a literal word-variation. My use of "your European brethren " was meant to mean simply, "your European brothers", "brothers" of course, being used in a figurative sense.

Yes, I guess there is a bit of ambiguity in my use of "varnish", although I suggest that the overall context in which it was used might be expected to remove most of the ambiguity. There was nothing ulterior in its use. Words, like food, are distasteful to some people and acceptable to others.

I too wish to contribute to the understanding of the bombing of Clydeside. I have never had any trouble understanding what and why the Germans were doing, and what and why we did the same to them. To my way of thinking the bombing of Clydeside was neither indiscriminate nor wanton, and I cannot imagine additional knowledge that will lead me to alter this belief.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Dugald » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:28 pm

Dexter, now i can see why i had so much trouble getting my additional contribution to this thread posted... timewise, my actual posting must have coincided exactly with yours. I get the point of your "funnies", although i had trouble reading it; no, not a language problem, one that was almost solved by use of my big magnifying glass. Cheers.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby escotregen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:18 pm

Dexter I appreciate you're holding a torch for the guy... but I cannot make any sense out of what you posted :?

I mean why the heck would anyone want to use the language of circa wartime 1940s (if that's what you meant?) in a topical and ongoing discussion? You are anyway getting into pretty extraneuos and highly debatable territory with your own inference that there is some qualitative difference between 'then and now' morals. And I'm not sure that you are clear on the different implications of the use and context of 'brethern' (i.e. the intended impact is on some other posters as opposed to 'the Germans') and 'varnished' (i.e a deliberately demeaning and contentious term about 'the'Germans')

But there again, in yet another clarification, Dugald states that he intended no negativity with his use of a term
that he ackowledges had a bit of ambiguity so all's well. But it is sad that this thread has now been taken so far from its original intent as to become a semantic debate about one poster's use of language and terminology and what he intended by those.

I for one won't be continuing further as I'm now off for a couple of weeks in sunnier climes :) .
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Socceroo » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:28 pm

I thought it was perhaps time to inject a bit of colour into this thread following the two week debate on the intent of the Air Raids carried out by the Luftwaffe. This card is No. 13 from the Wills Cigarette Card Series on Air Raid Precautions - "INCENDIARY BOMB AND ITS EFFECT"


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The card makes it all look a bit placid to me. I think i would be a bit wary of approaching a 1Kg device that fell out the sky from an enemy Bomber. But as often stated on this thread we now live in a different place and in a different time. Tackling these Incendiary Bombs where they landed was something that the general public were pretty much expected to deal with when confronted with them.

Given the amount of smokers in the 1940's the Cigarette card was undoubtedly an very effective way of conveying information to the public. Changed days indeed.
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Re: Bombs over Glasgow in WW2

Postby Socceroo » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:59 pm

This card is No. 13 from the Wills Cigarette Card Series on Air Raid Precautions - "INCENDIARY BOMB COOLING DOWN"

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So basically once the Incendiary Bomb had landed you were supposed to get out your Stirrup Pump and get to work on it. I think i read somewhere that the early Stirrup Pumps were a two person job.

So if you were on your own there was little you could do. Also the Luftwaffe would drop hundreds if not thousands of these Incendiary Bombs over a fairly small area.

Would you go out in the middle of an Air Raid to extinguish the odd Incendiary Bomb in the knowledge that they had been dropped by Pathfinder Bombers to give guidance to the follow on Bombers carrying High Explosive Bombs?

No thanks i think i would just sit in the Shelter.
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Re: Behavior of Luftwaffe in Clydeside Blitz.

Postby Dugald » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:56 pm

It seems to me that the dispute regarding the use of "indiscriminate" and "wanton" has now petered out. The time is nigh I feel, to mention that some of us in Canada have been deeply involved for the last two years or so, over a dispute very similar to ours on HG. I must first present some background information. In 2004, Canada completed the construction of a national war museum, built at the very expensive cost of $96 million. Included in the museum is a section dealing with the R.C.A.F., which during the war performed as # 6 Group, an integral part of British Bomber Command. An explanatory plaque on show in this RCAF section contained the text provided at the end of this post under the title, "Original Text".

The wording of this plaque created great furor among veterans' groups, including the Royal Canadian Legion. A petition was sent to the Canadian Parliament and the Canadian Senate (like UK's House of Lords). Debate, fiery at times, about this wording on the plaque continued for quite some time and received much national media attention. The result was an order to the Museum to change the wording to something which eliminated the possibility of Canadian air-crews, who served under "Bomber" Harris, being made to look like war criminals. ( Shortly after this, the CEO for the museum resigned) .The new wording, also provided at the end of this post, is longer and, to the veterans, somewhat more acceptable.

It takes but a moment to realise that what happened in the Canadian museum, might well happen to the Luftwaffe's air-crews involved in the bombing of Clydeside. This I believe is what happened on this HG thread... the current HG topic reflects an attempt to do to the Luftwaffe what the museum tried to do to Bomber Command.

The fact that the British government did not award a gong to Bomber Command's aircrews left festering doubts about the morality of a helluva lot of British airmen and civilians. One wonders if this governmental thoughtlessness contributed to the very suspicious wording on the first Canadian Museum plaque. In light of the inescapable equivalence between RAF and Luftwaffe bombing, need we accept wording on HG, without appropriate comment, that continues to cast doubt on the morality of the Luftwaffe, and hence, Britain's Bomber Command?

To label the Luftwaffe's Clydeside bombing as " indiscriminate and wanton", is to wrap the German airforce in moral-lacking guilt; however, in so doing, also steeps the RAF's Bomber Command to exactly the same depth of war criminality. I won't do that.

Original Text
Strategic Bombing:
Mass bomber raids against Germany resulted in vast destruction and heavy loss of life. The value and morality of the strategic bomber offensive against Germany remains bitterly contested. Bomber Command's aim was to crush civilian morale and force Germany to surrender by destroying its cities and industrial installations. Although Bomber Command and American attacks left 600,000 Germans dead, and more than five million homeless, the raids resulted in only small reductions in German war production until late in the war.


New text:
The Bombing
The strategic bombing campaign against Germany, an important part of the Allied effort that achieved victory, remains a source of controversy today.
Strategic bombing enjoyed wide public and political support as a symbol of Allied resolve and a response to German aggression. In its first years, the air offensive achieved few of its objectives and suffered heavy losses. Advances in technology and tactics, combined with Allied successes on other fronts, led to improved results. By war's end, Allied bombers had razed portions of every major city in Germany and damaged many other targets, including oil facilities and transportation networks. The attacks blunted Germany's economic and military potential, and drew scarce resources into air defence, damage repair, and the protection of critical industries.
Allied aircrew conducted this gruelling offensive with great courage against heavy odds. It required vast material and industrial efforts and claimed over 80,000 Allied lives, including more than 10,000 Canadians. While the campaign contributed greatly to enemy war weariness, German society did not collapse despite 600,000 dead and more than five million left homeless. Industrial output fell substantially, but not until late in the war. The effectiveness and the morality of bombing heavily-populated areas in war continue to be debated.
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Re: Behavior of Luftwaffe in Clydeside Blitz.

Postby Socceroo » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:51 am

Very interesting post Dugald. I was aware from your earlier posts on this topic that part of your concern may have been the parallels that could be drawn between the RAF and the Luftwaffe. And of course you have now clearly stated that.

Dugald wrote:To label the Luftwaffe's Clydeside bombing as " indiscriminate and wanton", is to wrap the German airforce in moral-lacking guilt; however, in so doing, also steeps the RAF's Bomber Command to exactly the same depth of war criminality. I won't do that.


Whilst there are obvious parallels to be drawn, the Luftwaffe and the RAF's reasons for each Air Force taking to the Air and dropping Bombs on each others civilian population were quite different. Nazi Germany wanted to take over Europe and Britain wanted to bring a war which it did not start to an end.

Other than yourself Dugald, i do not recall anyone making any particular comments on the RAF activity over Germany.

Dugald wrote:It takes but a moment to realise that what happened in the Canadian museum, might well happen to the Luftwaffe's air-crews involved in the bombing of Clydeside. This I believe is what happened on this HG thread... the current HG topic reflects an attempt to do to the Luftwaffe what the museum tried to do to Bomber Command.


I don't think anyone is attempting to do anything to the individual Air Crews Dugald, the criticism is that the Nazi Party and it's stated and well documented aims were barbaric. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

The Air Crews of both Air Forces were well trained, part of a very well planned operations, but by and large carrying out very dangerous operations on the say so of their political masters. Many of them on either side did not return to their families.

Dugald wrote:It seems to me that the dispute regarding the use of "indiscriminate" and "wanton" has now petered out.


Aye, good God in Govan man you have only mentioned it twice in your last post. ::):
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