Roman Glasgow/Cathures

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Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:06 am

Roman Glasgow.docx
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby moonbeam » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:44 pm

Just north of Drumchapel! See Roman marker stone found near Drumchapel and in the Huntarian museum. Plus of course
the Bearsden Roman Bath house with latrines!
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:14 pm

This is to some extent speculation, however it is only in the past 20 odd yours that there has been a requirement to carryout archaeological surveys on significant sites before development (PPG16 then PPS 5).
Old Glasgow is probably buried under several metres of occupation debris as is most very old towns- Roman London is about 6 metres down.
Significant finds such as the bath house at Bearsden were only discovered in the 70s and at Kirkintilloch the fort had actually been wrongly assumed to be projecting north of the wall until about 40 years ago.
It does seem a reasonable assumption that each the legionary HQ would be well behind the lines and linked to a supply centre on the Clyde. Old Kilpatrick may be a contender but I favour a more central location in Glasgow for one of them and the radial roads linking north to the Wall forts does seem to support this.
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:05 pm

Hi all,
I would welcome any feedback from anyone even if it is that I am talking 'mince'!

I started out on this in response to a comment from the city Council's own web site which states that a roman trading centre was located at Cathures (Old Glasgow) in about 80AD. However I cannot find where this information originates- Tacitus? can anyone help?

A trading centre makes little sense, given the likely opposition put up by the local tribes but a temporary port to off-load supplies, provide a control base and quarters for family members is possible while the legions were deployed on the Gask Ridge forts and further north at that time. Later re-use by the 20th legion on building the western end of The Antonine wall could have followed logically.

I know it is stretching credibility to build such a scenario just from a map but, as the old town is very likely to be buried under occupation debris what else is available?

Other items of interest is that The High street and Castle street are on perfect alignment except at the Bell O' The Brae due to the gradient possibly being too steep and of-course the radial routes north to forts at Bearsden, Balmuildy and Kirkintilloch are broadly straight given their antiquity..
The line of the Molendinar close by is very convoluted below Duke street which seems to indicate that mudflats were likely there before the river was contained- Old maps show the High Street does not run directly to the river but diverted west onto the Briggate which could also indicate poor ground.

If this has any credibility it truly would be Hidden Glasgow!

John
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby edward carolan » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:35 pm

Excellent scholarly referenced articles with illustrations at
http://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/museums/a ... tland.aspx
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:57 pm

Thanks for that Edward,
I had previously checked that site. Unfortunately there is little or no data on ancient Glasgow. By that I mean The High Street, Castle Street RottenRow etc. Yet there is a confirmed Roman Road heading towards Glasgow as far as a point beyond Bothwaellhaugh. Some 19C plans show it going the whole way.

I have had it confirmed from Professor Hanson that the reference to Glasgow as a 'Roman Trading site' in the City's web site is unfortunately conjecture- but why not in the absence of solid data?

John
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:34 pm

I was beginning to think that I was up a blind alley with my concept of a Roman Fort as the origin of Glasgow until I found this web site 'pastmap.org.uk'

It shows a Roman Road running North from Bothwellhaugh, via Tollcross Road, Duke Street then crossing Castle Street just Nrth of the Bell o' The Brae then through possil to the Roman Fort at Balmuildy which is known to have preceded The Antonine wall.

Taking into account the straight alignment og High street and Castle Street in spite of the great level difference and the diversion between them points to the route being engineered rather than having evolved randomly.

I note also that the Molendinar is meandered below Duke Street as indeed The Clyde is to the West. it indicates to me that the land was wetlands and that any supply depot would be on firmer ground more towards Duke Street.

Does anyone know of the detailed source and original work done in identifying this Bothwellhaugh/ Balmuildy route?

John
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:08 pm

It is clear that a possible early origin for Glasgow is not of great interest and few have picked up on this thread which is a pity as what could be more relevant to Hidden Glasgow than a Roman origin?

I know evidence is scant as much of the land of the old town has been quarried away, subject to major remodeling or simply under several metres of occupation debris. However,I recently come across a reference to ' a roman fort, demolished in his day guarding the Ladywell Gorge' ( Buchanan 1848)

This I think refers to the site where The Molendinar once cascaded down on the line of Wishart Street. This area was first heavily worked for Water Mill headings then later covered to accommodate the roadway over.
John


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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby edward carolan » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:32 pm

Sorry meant South-West
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:12 pm

Hi Edward.
Sorry I did not understand your comment did you miss something?
John
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby edward carolan » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:27 pm

Yes I tried to post a reply but it seems to have got lost in the ether. I wholeheartly agree with your previously posted comments.
Prehistoric Glasgow is the least examined part of Scotland.
We know more about pre-historic Orkney than we about Glasgow. The history is still there just a lot below our feet.
I read a review published in the GU archeology journal which concurs with your Roman Road from Bothwellhaugh to Possil. Perhaps a HG walk(s), all the roman or prehistoric I have done are easy walking.
Perhaps if we could identify the routes of the roads in and through Glasgow this may be a way into this enigma.
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby jock78 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:13 pm

Hi Edward,
Thanks for your appreciation.
I am an civil engineer/ town planner /transportation planner and like to think my strange spread of expertise helps me to get an insight in areas that may have been neglected.

I came to these conclusions without reference to any historical or archaeological source other than the obvious line of the wall.

I started by regarding the Necropolis/ Dunchattan Hill as being an iron age fort albeit long quarried away.
Then the 3 routes running north to Bearsden, Balmuildy and Kirkintilloch when straightened, focus into a point to the east of The current site of the cathedral. Looking at the strange fact that the High st and Castle Street are in the same alignment inspite of the Bell o' The Brae between is to my mind an indication that this has been set-out by design.

I then 'floated a kite' that this road crossed an east west line Rottenrow/ Drygait which may have formed the 'Cardos, Decumanos mutually at right angles of a fort placed to dominate the native hill fort Dunchatten.

I was astonished to then find the route Bothwellhaugh through Tollcross and Possil to Balmuildy in the site 'pastmap. and a reference by Buchanan of a previously known roman fort at ' The Ladywell Gorge'.- Maybe we can persuade Tenants to launch a Roman Lager!

I now live in Surbiton so the walk you suggest is not on for me only on google Earth!

I think what is required is an exhaustive search of old records, Mann made a number of references to 'artificial mounds' in the vicinity - but where did he get these references?

Best regards,

keep up the comments this is worth airing at length.
john ( jockminelly@gmail.com)
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby edward carolan » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:33 pm

Found this site
http://glasarchsoc.org.uk/
Lectures once a month, next one Thur 19th @ 7.30pm in Lecture Theatre 2 Boyd-Orr Building, University Ave. Open to the public, FREE. Topic : Brochs
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby edward carolan » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:40 pm

Don't know about Tennant's , but I would bet the Williams Bros. would be interested with their involvement with the Drygate pub/brewery. A whole range of Cathures beverages could result.
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Re: Roman Glasgow/Cathures

Postby edward carolan » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:04 pm

Found this in an article on land plots in medieval Scotland
he area occupied by the residences of the
canons of Glasgow Cathedral provides a useful
example of ecclesiastical planning in an urban
setting and contrasts well with the narrow
burgage plots of a typical medieval high street.
Excavations in 1980 on the west side of Castle
Street, at the site of the Govan Manse (opposite
the site of the Bishop’s Castle), revealed an east/
west aligned ditch c 1m wide, sealed beneath a
later 17th-century building. Provand’s Lordship,
the only surviving pre-Reformation structure
in Glasgow other than the cathedral itself,
lies immediately to the south, and measures
c 16.5m wide at the street frontage. The ditch,
which lies a similar distance to the north of
Provand’s Lordship, may thus represent the
northern boundary of the property on which the
Govan Manse was built. If so, these plots of land
are approximately three times wider than the
average town plot of c 5m.

http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/arc ... 81_323.pdf
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